Some PHEV tidbits

[jaapv]

You've turned yourself into a bit of a basher.
It has been long established that Mitsubishi used a very conservative acceleration figure. Next you'll be telling me that their fuel consumption figure is correct for normal use...

 

[elm70]

0-100 in 9.9 ... yes this is a PHEV forum with lot of lovers
Mitsubishi declared it at 11 seconds: http://mitsubishi-motors.ie/car/outlander-phev/

They sure were conservative, weren't they?



As Anko said, the car only uses 60 kW electric power up to 60 kph, and I advise you to study the torque/power/speed curves of electric motors.



(*not aPHEV motor, but a general example)

I know the ABC .. thanks

I also know that speed on the clock is in excess ... by law ... a car manufacture can get very big penalty if the car show a speed in defect vs the real speed.. and a car producer need to take in consideration also different tyres that could be used

The video show 11sec at 110km/h ... that is in line with the official Mitsubishi specs for PHEV ... that means 0-100 in 11sec
Or we should value more an amateur video showing an un-precise car speed meter ?

Yes .. I well know, that car use only 60kw (even less at lower speed) up to 60kmh .. is not a technology constrain ... see the tesla what they can do, or a BMW i3 ... it is a grandpa style decision made by Mitsubishi .. I only hope this decision help the car to "age" better

 

[jaapv]

I came to 10.1 using a GPS speedometer corrected speed.... The difference on my tacho @ 100 kph is 4 %.
Nice about Tesla, but there is a slight difference in the power it puts to the road, isn't there?

The 2012 Tesla Model S Performance model has a three phase, four pole AC induction 416 hp (310 kW) and 443 ft·lb (600 N·m) rear-mounted electric motor with copper rotor.[65] The base model uses a 362 hp (270 kW) and 325 ft·lb (440 N·m) motor.

 

[anko]

ICE and gear box has nothing to do with acceleration

Look at tesla .. no gearbox, no ICE, direct eMotor driving the car on a "single"gear ... and acceleration better than a ferrari .. also the "simple" model 3 will have under 7 sec for 0-100

Funny. You first compare the PHEV to a Merc, BMW and Volvo. I explain these can be faster because they have a normal gear box and are only that fast when driven as an E-supported ICE car. You say gearbox has nothing to do with it and all of a sudden you decide to compare it to a Tesla instead.

A Tesla is faster because it has a much larger battery can can thus pump out more kWs without harming the battery. Restricting battery output to roughly 5C (the kWh number times 5) in order to preserve battery life is quite common, I believe.

But what I still don't understand, if all these cars are so much better, why did you decide to buy the PHEV? I think it was your wife that made you buy it and you are taking it out on the car :mrgreen:

 

[elm70]

I came to 10.1 using a GPS speedometer corrected speed.... The difference on my tacho @ 100 kph is 4 %.

Probably based on weather condition and state of charge of battery .. real 0-100 is between 10.5 and 11.5

If battery is low ... there is no 120kw of power .. only 87kw - 10% from ICE .. so less then 80kw

Anyhow .. PHEV competitions does under 7 seconds.
10 or 11 seconds .. it is "slow"

 

[anko]

If battery is low ... there is no 120kw of power .. only 87kw - 10% from ICE .. so less then 80kw

This is not true. This is only true when the battery is EXTREMELY low, a condition that most people here have never been able to establish. Myself, I have experienced this only once, while towing my 1500 kg caravan from sea level to 1100 meters at motorway speeds.

Also, I have published diagrams on this forum showing that performance was not impacted, even with SOC well below the point where it would normally be recharged by the ICE.

BTW: Without any support from the battery, available power would be restricted to 60 kW, not 80. Do your homework

Probably based on weather condition and state of charge of battery .. real 0-100 is between 10.5 and 11.5

You think the numbers for the other cars were produced in less then optimal conditions? Or do you think Jaap is lying?

Anyhow .. PHEV competitions does under 7 seconds.
10 or 11 seconds .. it is "slow"

What PHEV competition? :mrgreen:

 

[elm70]

Funny. You first compare the PHEV to a Merc, BMW and Volvo. I explain these can be faster because they have a normal gear box and are only that fast when driven as an E-supported ICE car. You say gearbox has nothing to do with it and all of a sudden you decide to compare it to a Tesla instead.

A Tesla is faster because it has a much larger battery can can thus pump out more kWs without harming the battery. Restricting battery output to roughly 5C (the kWh number times 5) in order to preserve battery life is quite common, I believe.

But what I still don't understand, if all these cars are so much better, why did you decide to buy the PHEV? I think it was your wife that made you buy it and you are taking it out on the car :mrgreen:

What 5C has to do here ?

In ideal condition the car has 60kw from Battery and 80kw from the ICE as electric generator .. so it is more then the 120kw ePower used by the 2 eMotors ...

But decision has been to use less then 60kw up to 60km/h ... while other car are able to use more power from electric engine at low RPM .. electric engine have a wider range of high power compared to ICE ... I'm sure at 60km/h 120kw are possible from the PHEV electrics motors

It is a decision ... not a technical limitation

PS: Battery usage .. also it is a bit odd .. PHEV max discharge and max charge are set both to 60kw .. so 5C ... one is looking over conservative and one is looking above the edge ... yes ... B5 from over 130km/h will pop the recharge almost up to 60kw .. Finally .. for a burst usage : few seconds .. many battery producers allow or suggest that double C discharge is allowed ... so .. 120kw from battery for 10 seconds ... is something that for most battery producer as equally as 60kw as constant discharge ... so .. they could have used this instead to start the ICE for few seconds as the PHEV does

 

[anko]

What 5C has to do here ?

In ideal condition the car has 60kw from Battery and 80kw from the ICE as electric generator .. so it is more then the 120kw ePower used by the 2 eMotors ...

True. 5C does not matter. My bad.

But again, the generator produces no more than 60 kW (after losses) as the ICE runs at 4100 RPM in that mode, not at its max of 4500 RPM.

Still, consuming more than 60 kW per motor at speeds below 60 km/h, you would result in exceeding max torque specs of the motors.

 

[elm70]

This is not true. This is only true when ...

Ok ... I think the sentence above clarify all

"We" are mixing true and not true .... too easily

Note:
It is a fact that a battery can't be all time discharged (it is empty well before 30km when used for high power demand) .. so ... it is normal that at some point there is only the ICE that will provide the power to the car .. so .. only 60kw in EV mode .. or 87kw in ICE direct drive mode (if the speed match the single gear rpm of max power of ICE)

 

[elm70]

True. 5C does not matter. My bad.

But again, the generator produces no more than 60 kW (after losses) as the ICE runs at 4100 RPM in that mode, not at its max of 4500 RPM.

Still, consuming more than 60 kW per motor at speeds below 60 km/h, you would result in exceeding max torque specs of the motors.

Brushless eMotors don't have "max torque" limit.

Torque, in a eMotor, is due to magnetic fields .. that are contact less by definition ... only limit is the magnets size and "injected" current

The questions are :
- Does the single direct gear or differential has limitation on max torque ?
- What is the eMotor efficiency at low rpm? Will be, the current and/or heat, above the "safety" limit at high power and low RPM ?

Note ... there is either no current limit ... the only critical factor on a eMotor is the heat that can be produced especially in the low efficiency range ... again ... few seconds burst ... don't arm the eMotors .. nor can cause to overheat ... but does require "management attention" ... check of the eMotor temperature and decide how much bust can be send to the engine ... more or less what tesla does ... not always perfectly since a tesla in a hot lap in Nürburgring, often end up with overheat alarms and power reduction mode activated

Either way ... other producers like tesla or BMW with i3 .. don't have this torque limit issue ... it is clearly a decision made inside Mitsubishi .. either for save few "cents" avoiding stronger parts or for have a more robust and better ageing car.

 

[jaapv]

You are mixing things up. The Tesla and BMW are pure electric vehicles, not a hybrid like the PHEV. Still, they have a maximum torque. See the specs.
The H in PHEV stands for hybrid. If you wanted a pure EV vehicle you are in the wrong place.

 

[anko]

This is not true. This is only true when ...

Ok ... I think the sentence above clarify all

"We" are mixing true and not true .... too easily [/quote]
I am quite confident that you know exactly what I meant by that

It is a fact that a battery can't be all time discharged (it is empty well before 30km when used for high power demand) .. so ... it is normal that at some point there is only the ICE that will provide the power to the car .. so .. only 60kw in EV mode .. or 87kw in ICE direct drive mode (if the speed match the single gear rpm of max power of ICE)

In theory, yes. In real world? Hardly. Have you really been in that situation yourself? Would you care to share with us what you have done to achieve that situation (like I did in my previous post)?

 

[elm70]

You are mixing things up. The Tesla and BMW are pure electric vehicles, not a hybrid like the PHEV. Still, they have a maximum torque. See the specs.
The H in PHEV stands for hybrid. If you wanted a pure EV vehicle you are in the wrong place.

Nope .. I don't mix up

The Outlander PHEV is closer to a tesla then not to a Prius

We "agreed" with anko that this PHEV has 120kw power available all the time. So the "slow" acceleration was an intentional "decision" more than any real technical limitation

BMW i3 is available both as EV and as Hybrid ... and the Outlander PHEV has a design very close to the BMW i3 hybrid ... just for show how close are some PHEV and EV models

It is not very un-precise to state that Outlander PHEV is an EV with an on board generator .. since the parallel mode does happen in some special condition which are not even essential ... if they would have limited the car to battery and serial mode only (like BMW i3 Hybrid) .. there would not be much difference in the end result

 

[elm70]

It is a fact that a battery can't be all time discharged (it is empty well before 30km when used for high power demand) .. so ... it is normal that at some point there is only the ICE that will provide the power to the car .. so .. only 60kw in EV mode .. or 87kw in ICE direct drive mode (if the speed match the single gear rpm of max power of ICE)

In theory, yes. In real world? Hardly. Have you really been in that situation yourself? Would you care to share with us what you have done to achieve that situation (like I did in my previous post)?[/quote]

Yes ... after driving at 130/140 km/h in the motor way ... battery go to zero ... and on the next slow down and big acceleration it is visible that top power on the dash is ~ 30/40kw shy compared to when battery is not empty

 

[anko]

[We "agreed" with anko that this PHEV has 120kw power available all the time. So the "slow" acceleration was an intentional "decision" more than any real technical limitation

In terms of electrical power that would be true. In terms of mechanical power, this is not true. If I have agreed to this in the past, I was wrong at that time.

I think I have always said that available power was 0 - 120 kW between 0 and 60 km/h (linear), 120 kW between 60 and 120 km/h and 120 - 204 kW between 120 and 170 km/h.

 

[anko]

It is a fact that a battery can't be all time discharged (it is empty well before 30km when used for high power demand) .. so ... it is normal that at some point there is only the ICE that will provide the power to the car .. so .. only 60kw in EV mode .. or 87kw in ICE direct drive mode (if the speed match the single gear rpm of max power of ICE)

In theory, yes. In real world? Hardly. Have you really been in that situation yourself? Would you care to share with us what you have done to achieve that situation (like I did in my previous post)?

Yes ... after driving at 130/140 km/h in the motor way ... battery go to zero ... and on the next slow down and big acceleration it is visible that top power on the dash is ~ 30/40kw shy compared to when battery is not empty

I think your car is broken. PLease see http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21482#p21482.

 

[jaapv]

I don't wish - but Anko is right. I needed to drive @ 160-170 up a long Autobahn slope with a fully loaded car and skibox and headwind to get it into the " reduced power mode " warning on the dash. Even then the power was not actually reduced yet. It gets more and more clear that the original owner must have been very happy to sell the car on abroad

 

[elm70]

I don't wish - but Anko is right. I needed to drive @ 160-170 up a long Autobahn slope with a fully loaded car and skibox and headwind to get it into the " reduced power mode " warning on the dash. Even then the power was not actually reduced yet. It gets more and more clear that the original owner must have been very happy to sell the car on abroad

It was a leasing car ... ex car owner was sucking only NL tax advantage associated to the car ... after leasing , car got sold between NL reseller and a PL reseller

Car has been inspected by Mitsubishi and later on it got official Service

Everything is perfectly in order ...unless QC by Mitsubishi is double blind ...