Struggling with this fast charging business

[Fancy McDancy]

I've had my 2020 Outlander for 10 days now and am struggling with the complexity of fast charging. Or, is it complex? That's why I need the help of the Forum.

I have neighbours on either side of me with fast chargers, but neither (one has a Tesla EV, the other a Merc PHEV) has a charging cable that fits the the fast charge (CHAdeMO?) port on my Outlander. I tried a local public charging station (InstaVolt) five times and though it accessed my bank account each time for £15 and the cable fitted my port, the charger failed to provide any electricity to the car. At least the £75 was repaid, but a week later.

So, what do I need to do if I want to access a public charger?

I've also come across this:

"FairCharge founder Quentin Willson also reinforced the view that the number of chargers available “will gradually decline”. He commented: “CHAdeMO connectors are being phased out in Europe as most OEMs outside Japan have gone for CCS. The first gen EV Mitsubishis, Citroens, Peugeots and Nissans had CHAdeMO.… For the vast majority of EV drivers CCS is the gold charger socket standard and has become the default fitment.”"

Should I be worried?

 

[mellobob]

Don't worry. Using gasoline is cheaper than using commercial chargers.

 

[Elkman]

Hi Fancy,
I’ve had a 2021 Dynamic for almost 6 months now and have not gone anywhere near a public charger. I use the granny charger about 3 or 4 times a week and have had no issues. I have done 3900 miles so far, it had 21k on the clock when purchased. I’m still getting to grips with the various modes, when to use Save, Charge, eco, and ev, and I tend to use the regen paddles as braking to scrub off speed approaching junctions etc. There are lots of interesting threads on this site as to how best to use the various modes, often contradictory. I find that on longer journeys a mixture of save, charge, and normal works for me depending on road type and average speed. 60mph on a flat motorway / dual carriageway seems to be a good time to get some charge back in the battery without stressing the engine or burning more fuel. If it gets a bit hilly or complicated I use save to keep what I’ve stored until I get to slower urban stuff where I will then go to normal or ev to use the battery.

I’m loving the outlander and it just keeps getting better the more I play.
I really want to have fun in snow or mud but not much of either in the south-east corner of England.

Hope this helps and will be interested to read other folks views.

 

[Fancy McDancy]

Don't worry. Using gasoline is cheaper than using commercial chargers.

That might be true in The Land of Gasoline, but not necessarily so in The Land of Petrol!

 

[Fancy McDancy]

Hi Fancy,
I’ve had a 2021 Dynamic for almost 6 months now and have not gone anywhere near a public charger. I use the granny charger about 3 or 4 times a week and have had no issues. I have done 3900 miles so far, it had 21k on the clock when purchased. I’m still getting to grips with the various modes, when to use Save, Charge, eco, and ev, and I tend to use the regen paddles as braking to scrub off speed approaching junctions etc. There are lots of interesting threads on this site as to how best to use the various modes, often contradictory. I find that on longer journeys a mixture of save, charge, and normal works for me depending on road type and average speed. 60mph on a flat motorway / dual carriageway seems to be a good time to get some charge back in the battery without stressing the engine or burning more fuel. If it gets a bit hilly or complicated I use save to keep what I’ve stored until I get to slower urban stuff where I will then go to normal or ev to use the battery.

I’m loving the outlander and it just keeps getting better the more I play.
I really want to have fun in snow or mud but not much of either in the south-east corner of England.

Hope this helps and will be interested to read other folks views.

Thanks for this, it's really helpful.

 

[Elkman]

Thanks for this, it's really helpful.

Glad to help.

I forgot to add it takes me 4hrs 30 mins to fully charge the battery from empty, and the guessometer usually shows between 23 to 27 miles. I do have a dedicated circuit for the granny charger and the plug does get quite warm to the touch. Just make sure your 13A socket is good quality and preferably new.

 

[kpetrov]

That might be true in The Land of Gasoline, but not necessarily so in The Land of Petrol!

If public charging station is charging you £15 per plug I beg to differ. Even in the land of Petrol the petrol is cheaper than public charging an PHEV

 

[hughwi]

So - you will find that the Chademo implementation that the outlander PHEV uses, is a bit buggy (at least it is for the pre 2020 models), especially when used in conjuction with the newer 150+kwh public chargers. I would advise against using any of the 150+ chargers, even if they have the chadmo connector option. The older podpoint ones, and any others that are 50 or less, seem to be fine and work reliably (you usually find them in LIDL car parks).

The Chademo implementation on the PHEV will also only charge your battery to 80% AFAIK, although it will do it fairly quickly at 15-20kwh max. This is to protect the battery from overheating, as it doesnt have any active cooling. - I wouldnt recommend doing fast charging regularly, as it can stress the battery. Also - these public chargers usually have an extortionate rate per kwh, which is often more expensive than petrol, especially if they charge a connection fee (putting aside the standard £10-15 holding charge they place on your card).

You are right, the Chademo standard is less popular, and is being phased out in Europe at least. - But this isnt a problem, as you can just get a Type1 to Type2 cable, and use all of the 3/7/22kwh Type 2 chargers. - I bought mine off ebay from a Nissan leaf owner, and its been great. Type 2 is not going anywhere as a standard anytime soon, and is much more prevalent here in the UK. Even better, you should have been given a 3 pin plug to Type 1 charger (granny charger) with the car, and you can just use that to charge from a domestic socket, assuming you have checked its installed properly, and any extension/adapter you use has a 13amp fuse and is well made - as they do get warm!

I would highly recommend getting ZapMap and sign up for Electroverse (if you are an Octopus customer - or if you know someone who is - get them to refer you for free charging credit!) and downloading their apps, and then setting the filters for type1/chademo (or type2 if you buy the cable) - if you are sure you want to use public charging networks - as it takes all the guessing out of finding them - although even when you do - you cant guarantee they will be functional or without queues! (or parking restrictions).

 

[hughwi]

Sorry - also just thinking about your failed charges, if the car is second hand - have you checked that there arent already charging timer/schedules configured on the car for overnight charging from the previous owner, who might have exclusively home-charged on a night rate. You can get into them to check via the car infotainment settings -> charging setting options.

If you want to do a quick test, you can hook up, then close the doors, lock the car and press the button on the side of the keyfob with the clock/stopwatch icon on it twice - the hazards should then flash 3 times to tell you the charging timer schedule has been overridden for this charge, and the charging should start (you can tell as the car will make a clunk/clicking sound as the circuit kicks in - and the red plug icon on the dashboard will light up and stay lit)

https://www.zap-map.com/ and https://electroverse.octopus.energy/ and https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Type-1-t...ectric-Hybrid-Cars-32A-5M-cable-/113651596074 (not a recommendation to buy from them - just to show you what you are looking for).

 

[mellobob]

That might be true in The Land of Gasoline, but not necessarily so in The Land of Petrol!

Well, at least I don't call it "gas" like 99% of the people here do. Used to do advert work for a major oil and gas company and they would go ballistic when someone called the liquid going into a car "gas".

 

[michael8554]

If you'd done a cost analysis of UK Rapid Charging you wouldn't go near one.

The Shell Recharge CHAdeMo at my local Waitrose supermarket costs £0.79 per kWh.

(BTW Shell Recharge seems to be the only brand that will CHAdeMo charge my 2011 Mitsubishi I-MIEV fully electric car)

A 2020 12kWh Outlander PHEV would cost £9.48 to fully charge from zero (if 12kWh is the useable capacity)

At my home that would cost £1.66.

Say the EV range is 30 miles, that would cost approx £5.00 using petrol at 40mpg.

Before the UK electricity price rises brought about by the Ukraine War, Rapid Charging was cheaper than petrol, but not now.

Slow charge at home as much as possible.

 

[Fancy McDancy]

I hope you don't think it lazy but can I offer a simple, blanket thankyou for all these helpful and thoughtful contributions.

 

[kpetrov]

Well, at least I don't call it "gas" like 99% of the people here do. Used to do advert work for a major oil and gas company and they would go ballistic when someone called the liquid going into a car "gas".

Well it is short from:

 

[tikan]

Someone mentioned it above and I agree. Mitsubishi's Chademo implementation is buggy. I haven't been able to get it to work across multiple chargers yet and the notes on Plugshare for those chargers state that they have issues with Mitsubishi vehicles.

 

[IllustratedRat]

Only used the ChaDeMo system twice (public chargers, while waiting in line and the grocery store); both times it only charged up to about 75% before shutting off.

I was wondering why also; my level-2 charger at home can give me a 90-99% charge in 3-4 hours.

 

[BobK]

Only used the ChaDeMo system twice (public chargers, while waiting in line and the grocery store); both times it only charged up to about 75% before shutting off.

I was wondering why also; my level-2 charger at home can give me a 90-99% charge in 3-4 hours.

This summer was the first time I used the ChaDeMo on one of the Flo chargers near me to fast-charge my 2023. They look like they were designed in the ‘70s Soviet Union to withstand a nuclear attack. The fellow Outlander user ahead of me helped me out by starting it for me, but I didn’t pay enough attention.
I had heard one should not fast-charge beyond 80% because that could damage the battery, so at 80% I jabbed the off button - but it wouldn’t stop charging. I kept jabbing at the button and nothing. The connector was locked to the car, so I couldn’t disconnect. I had only had the car for two weeks so I started scanning the manual to see how to stop it. Nothing. I then called Flo tech support and got put on eternal hold. I tried contacting Mitsubishi through the onboard app, but couldn’t seem to connect. Eventually, when the charge got well over 90% I just kept leaning on the stop button and it eventually stopped. But what I did notice while watching the progress on the charger was that as I passed 80%, the charging rate was dropping significantly as the charge increased. I suspect this is part of Mitsubishi’s battery management to protect it from overcharging damage. Maybe some chargers turn off if the charging rate drops too low.
It turned out that the standard practice on our Flo chargers is to lean on the start and stop buttons for about a minute before anything happens.

 

[michael8554]

On most EVs the Rapid Charging rate tails off above about 80% due to the BMS action.
As I understand it, some of the cells will be hitting fully charged, and fewer and fewer of the cells will need charging.
I believe you can force up to 100% by replugging, but it will take ages as it will be at more like slow charging rate, to balance the cells.
An analogy is like filling a bath right to the brim without overflowing.
You start off fast, but have to slow down near the top to prevent overflow.

 

[OutlanderMatt]

Hi, there is a big misconception about charging the outlanders past 80% because of damage etc.
the fact is they aren’t actually really fast charging anyway on the Chademo chargers. I have a 2015 with a 40AH battery. The Standard charge rate for most batteries is 1C so in the case of a 40AH battery this would be 40Amps. When the battery is empty the vehicle will only take about 15Kw of charge and this gets to just on 16kW towards the end as the voltage has risen.
15Kw divided by 300V (nominal battery voltsge) equals 50Amps. It maintains this until the battery voltage rises to a point where the charge rate starts dropping off. This happens between 75-80% but has nothing to do with % but all to do with voltage in the batteries. As someone said previously it then rapidly drops and this is the charger moving from constant current charging to constant voltage charging as the BMS has told the charger this is the target voltage.
After that it will decline and my cat depending on temperature of the battery etc will disconnect anywhere from 88% right up to 94%. At 93-94% there is only about 2Kw going in which is only about 6A at the full battery voltage if 328V so it’s down to a trickle.
Some charger will cut out at 80% however this is generally a setting in the charger and not the care doing it.
Back to the charge rate 50Amps is only 25% over the batteries Standard charge rate and it is set in the vehicle and is requested by the car. These batteries have a continuous charge rate of 200A so it’s only 1/4 of that. You are really not fast charging as far as the battery is concerned.
There is really nothing to worry about fast charging them and you would do more damage to the battery charging it to full at home and then leaving it full for a week than you would do fast charging.
Yes you have to consider if you have just been using the battery hard out and then stop and fast charge straight away that this isn’t great for the batter however that’s about letting the battery rest a bit more than the fast charging.
Also I’m not sure what the charge rate of the newer models are however I would say the follow the similar style.
Outlander generally have small batteries considering so when you “Fast Charge” the voltage in the batteries rise fairly quickly and that starts making the charge current taper off fairly quickly.
Also another note, there is also over voltage protection in the software and there is a absolute max voltage sent to the charger when they start so it this is ever hit it would cut out immediately anyway.
Hope this helps