Heater question

[greendwarf]

I drive my MG Midget with the roof down in the middle of winter, so I think I can probably cope with a bit of cold in a PHEV :lol:

But you don't say whether you also have the heating going full blast :lol:

 

[ThudnBlundr]

I did, but the heating on a Midget is pretty rudimentary. You have to manually open and close spring-loaded metal flaps in the footwell to direct the heat, and there's actually a brass tap on top of the engine block to turn off flow to the heater radiator :roll: Ski clothing complete with a hat with earflaps is the answer. You do get some strange looks though

@mazzo I have a pre-facelift 4hs and the pre-heating works fine. If I forget, it still starts to warm up in a couple of miles with the engine running. But the seat warmers are your friend until then. I think you need to see someone to get it fixed - good luck

 

[mazzo]

Thanks.

Well, today there's something new to report....

Last night we went on a 40 minute motorway drive. It was 7 degrees outside, so even though we tried to start the internal temp off low, the engine kicked in immediately. Then we drove on the motorway for about 15 miles. During the whole journey, the temperature was tepid at best. In other words, exactly the issue I have been discussing when I started the thread.

Then today....... It was 12 degrees outside and I set the internal temp to 23.5 degrees. The engine didn't start and I drove for only about 8 mins. In that time, the car heated up and we had warm (actually verging on hot) air on our feet!

So, logic would suggest that it is the thermostat in the ICE. If the electric heater works when it is on (but of course won't come on when the temp is too low) that seems to suggest there's no problem with the element or the circulation/valve. However if it forces the car to use ICE either because it is below 10 degrees or because you are driving fast enough to use the ICE, then the temp is low because the engine in never reaching working temp due to the thermostat being open/faulty. I have had this on a normal non EV car and apart from being permanently cold, it also used a lot more fuel. And here lies the clincher for me - the Outlander is really poor on fuel usage when it needs to use it. It will do about 32-36MPG. Clearly this goes up if it manages to use any battery, but on those occasions when I have been away from home and unable to charge it, this is what we have been getting for a while now.

If I am right, then it is a relief because changing the thermostat is easy and pretty cheap in comparison to some of the other alternatives.

I will do this soon and report back.

I hope this helps anyone else facing the odd dilemma of really naff heating when the temp has dropped outside significantly. I am guessing that, if someone face the same situation I have, it will be when their engine is on, not when it is managing to do heat purely electrically.

 

[NightPHEVer]

The gas keeps dissapearing from my aircon and have been unable to detect how and where it goes. It has dye in it and I've got a 'black' light to highlight any obvious leaks. I think the Mitsubishi garage has a wand type device that should be able to detect if gas is coming out of any of the vents? Nothing has been found though. Lasts about 10 months before the aircon symbol starts flashing. I've left aircon all the time since the last time it was re-gassed but it's now low again and I'm guessing will need re-gassing. Wish I knoew where it all goes.

Oh, I've now found out where it's been going - leaking condenser. Poor quality metal disintegrated and allowed (very slowly) most of the gas and oil to escape. It's just cost me £699 to have it replaced (Mitsubishi main dealer). The condenser wasn't damaged, just poor quality.

Not hugely surprised by this as my 2008 Smart fortwo 451 has now had two new air con condensers. The first one started leaking a week after the three year warranty ran out (material failure not stone or jet washer damage) and MB didn't want to know about helping to pay for it. The second one lasted about 5 years and then the same thing happened. I think the third one wasn't a genuine MB part and so far has lasted about 4 years. According to the air con specialist who twice replaced my Smart condensor the quality of the aluminum used is pretty poor these days - even on premium brand cars like Merc, BMW and Land Rover.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Condenser failure seems fairly common. When we bought ours secondhand, the AC wasn't working and had to replace it.

 

[JohanvdH]

Same here... Condenser failed after 5 years.
My previous car (a Prius) was still using its original condensor when I sold it after owning it for 10 years.

 

[NightPHEVer]

My heater is now not entirely 'toasty'. Just had the engine coolant changed for the first time (vehicle now 9 years old) using the correct spec blue Mitsubishi coolant. Am now finding that after around 20 minutes of driving use the heater temperature becomes only tepid. If I'm parked stationary for 20 minutes whether the engine is running or not the heater works fine, and seems to respond to temperature changes on the controls (ie, if I increase from 22oC to 29oC the air blowing out the vents gets hotter - suggesting the in-cabin sensor is ok) but if I drive along at normal road speeds the heat gradually deteriorates until it's almost cold, whatever the temperature is set to and whichever driving 'mode' is engaged, or if the air con is on or off.

There was a lot of bleeding of air involved in the installation of the new coolant, using the bleed nut near the filter location on the bulkhead.

The timed cabin electric 'pre heater' which I understand is locatedunder the passenger seat/floor does still work, although it's a bit feeble.

I have read of the various possible explanations for this loss of heat - blocked in-line heater pipe filter (checked this - not blocked) 4-way valve thermostat issues (don't know yet) or auxillary pump inoperative. When it comes to the auxillary pump I'm concerned that under no circumstances can I detect any heat or operational noises coming from this pump*. I've enclosed a photo - as far as I can determine this is the auxillary heater pump as I've seen them for sale (costly!) on Ebay. My question is when should it actually operate and what does it do? It has a sticker on it warning of heat, but on no occasion can I detect it doing anything or any heat.

Further internet research has now revealed... that I still don't know what the device pictured actually does. I've seen quite a few of these for sale described as 'Auxillary water heater pump part no. 7806A006' but no explanation from anybody selling one as to what it does. I also can't find any reference to this item existing on any of the variously available Mitsubishi parts diagrams. What gives here...

Any further enlightenment most welcome at this stage - at this time of year it gets colder here in Scotland, and I'm ok with 29oC.

UPDATE: Ah, well further to this - looks very likely that this device* is in fact the braking vacuum pump - so nothing whatsoever to do with the heating system!? Although the part number doesn't seem to make sense. Perhaps most sellers on the internet have been doing too much cutting and pasting and got this wrongly identified? I notice a couple of the sellers do list it as a braking vacuum pump.
Looks likely then that I have a problem with either the 4-way valve/thermostat or the bulkhead mounted pump shown on the parts diagrams - as in fact illustrated last year by MrPastry on 'heater not working' thread on 'Technical Discussions'. I've just had a listen to the electric pump located at the bottom of the bulkhead (with a listening stick) and it does make a whirring noise when the heating is just running on electric (ie. the petrol engine is not running - hard to tell when the engine is running but probably works then too) I'm thinking that therfore it's working, so by a process of elimination the problem may well be the thermostat within the 4-way valve not functioning correctly. These seem hard to obtain - on ebay only from Japan

Or as mentioned above by Mazzo in 2019 - could it all be caused by the engine thermostat not working correctly? Mazzo never gave an update of what happened...

 

[Skylander]

I came to ask about the exact symptoms that mazzo was describing, also GX4HS from 2015..

Whether plugged in or not, the remote climate control simply blows cold air - after leaving it for 20 mins I've connected the OBD and Engine Coolant Temp was same as outside temp, below 10*C

I have then switched the car on and turned the heating all the way up - instantly the ICE started and the coolant temperature started rising slowly - but fan was blowing cold air still, all the time until the coolant reached 50*C, only then some mildly warm air started to come through the vents..

What is causing this, I chose the GX4h/s because of the electric heater option but doesn't seem to be working.

 

[NightPHEVer]

Hmm, well further reference to Facebook enlightens me to the fact that this is a common problem with Outlander PHEVs. Mitsubishi use a procedure involving an electric pump and citric acid solution pumped through the system to clear it out (heater matrix - the very difficult to get at bit inside the dashboard) and possibly the electric heater too. Electric pump failure and 4-way valve failure also a possibility. Also difficult to get rid of airlocks - the air bleeding procedure is very specific and I'm not entirely sure what it is. Mitsubishi are aware of this problem - hence the citric acid procedure. My GX4h is currently with an ex Mitsubishi mechanic who is familiar with this procedure and is hopefully going to be able to identify the exact nature of the problem I currently have, and maybe even fix it!

 

[Skylander]

Hopefully you'll get it fixed, and do share an update!

 

[littlescrote]

It's outrageous that they haven't had to do a recall to sort this issue as it is known and very common. Touch wood my 2016 hasn't suffered from it and still heats well at all times that it's called for.

 

[NightPHEVer]

Yes I am hopeful I'll get it fixed - just a bit concerned what the cost might be. Seems to start with a Best Case Scenario of: 1) Bleeding air out of the system. If that doesn't work then... 2) Progress through the citric acid reverse pump-through treatment. Then 3) If faults are found, the need to replace either the electric heater pump or 4-way electric/petrol engine valve, then 4) Replacement of the entire electric heater. If none of this works we reach... 5) Worst Case Scenario of Mitsubishi wanting to replace the entire heating system, which would probably from a cost vs. vehicle value perspective, effectively write the car off!

Don't know if a malfunction of the conventional thermostat in the petrol engine could be a factor in this, but as it could well be in a non-PHEV petrol engined car, then I suppose it could. The other thing to worry about is that parts of the heating system have been further damaged by the lack of coolant flow (ie, air locks).

Hmm - yes I will let you know what the outcome is....

 

[NightPHEVer]

Fortunately for me, my heater is now toasty hot again. No apparent damage or component failure. There was some further goopy crystallized coolant partially blocking the in-line filter. Heating system (matrix and electric heater) was pumped in both directions with citric acid solution using Official, Mitsubishi supplied pumping kit, multiple times. This procedure takes several hours. Then the system was re-filled with new Mitsubishi coolant and the cooling system was bled using Mitsubishi recommended service technique (at this time I don't know the precise nature of this procedure). Car was then driven around for about half an hour twice, (so one hour in total) and then the filter was checked again. All clear. So far so good...

I will try and obtain more information about this procedure, but the ex Mitsubishi mechanic who did it may or may not wish to eleborate.

 

[nrayanov]

To diagnose and fix your heating issue, you need to carry out some steps:

1. There could be stuck airflaps. To reset/fix this, you need to put the car into ACC2 mode, push AUTO on the HVAC controls, and then press the MODE button 20 times, pausing for about 5 seconds between each press.

2. If this doesn't help, the cabin temperature sensor might be blocked with fluff/dust, and/or other stuff. It's located behind the gashes on the dashboard near the steering column. You can clean that with a compressed air can.

3. The cabin heater matrix might be blocked. You can check on YouTube to learn how to fix this or find a garage to do it for you.

4. The 4-way valve might be blocked. You can check on YouTube to learn how to fix this or find a garage to do it for you.

5. If none of the above fixes the issue with heating, you are probably looking at a broken electric heater or electric pump, especially if it heats fine from the engine.

 

[brownted]

To diagnose and fix your heating issue, you need to carry out some steps:

1. There could be stuck airflaps. To reset/fix this, you need to put the car into ACC2 mode, push AUTO on the HVAC controls, and then press the MODE button 20 times, pausing for about 5 seconds between each press.

2. If this doesn't help, the cabin temperature sensor might be blocked with fluff/dust, and/or other stuff. It's located behind the gashes on the dashboard near the steering column. You can clean that with a compressed air can.

3. The cabin heater matrix might be blocked. You can check on YouTube to learn how to fix this or find a garage to do it for you.

4. The 4-way valve might be blocked. You can check on YouTube to learn how to fix this or find a garage to do it for you.

5. If none of the above fixes the issue with heating, you are probably looking at a broken electric heater or electric pump, especially if it heats fine from the engine.

Hello Nrayanov
Your email is very helpful as it looks as if the airflap is the problem on my 2018 PHEV.
My problem is that I don't know how to access " ACC2" or "HVAC" from the power switch is and I don't see these in the owner's manual.
I'll be grateful for any info you can give.

 

[hughwi]

Thanks.

Well, today there's something new to report....

Last night we went on a 40 minute motorway drive. It was 7 degrees outside, so even though we tried to start the internal temp off low, the engine kicked in immediately. Then we drove on the motorway for about 15 miles. During the whole journey, the temperature was tepid at best. In other words, exactly the issue I have been discussing when I started the thread.

Then today....... It was 12 degrees outside and I set the internal temp to 23.5 degrees. The engine didn't start and I drove for only about 8 mins. In that time, the car heated up and we had warm (actually verging on hot) air on our feet!

So, logic would suggest that it is the thermostat in the ICE. If the electric heater works when it is on (but of course won't come on when the temp is too low) that seems to suggest there's no problem with the element or the circulation/valve. However if it forces the car to use ICE either because it is below 10 degrees or because you are driving fast enough to use the ICE, then the temp is low because the engine in never reaching working temp due to the thermostat being open/faulty. I have had this on a normal non EV car and apart from being permanently cold, it also used a lot more fuel. And here lies the clincher for me - the Outlander is really poor on fuel usage when it needs to use it. It will do about 32-36MPG. Clearly this goes up if it manages to use any battery, but on those occasions when I have been away from home and unable to charge it, this is what we have been getting for a while now.

If I am right, then it is a relief because changing the thermostat is easy and pretty cheap in comparison to some of the other alternatives.

I will do this soon and report back.

I hope this helps anyone else facing the odd dilemma of really naff heating when the temp has dropped outside significantly. I am guessing that, if someone face the same situation I have, it will be when their engine is on, not when it is managing to do heat purely electrically.

This is interesting, because our 2017 4HS does exactly the same thing - where is this thermostat so that I can have a look at it/buy a replacement or get a local garage to look at it?

 

[nrayanov]

Hello Nrayanov
Your email is very helpful as it looks as if the airflap is the problem on my 2018 PHEV.
My problem is that I don't know how to access " ACC2" or "HVAC" from the power switch is and I don't see these in the owner's manual.
I'll be grateful for any info you can give.

To get into ACC2, "fake ready mode", you need to press the start button twice WITHOUT pressing the break.

HVAC means Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning, there only one "MODE" button on the dashboard.

 

[brownted]

Thanks nrayanov. 'Mode' on the air conditioning panel! Off course. I was looking for it on the menu button.
My filter is clear, the engine coolant gets warm and heat goes into and out of the heater matrix. I'll try the software reset and advise.
Many thanks.