Increasing capacity of batteries.

[vtechtuning]

I found (by internal dimensions) that theoretically as the height and length of LEV40 and LEV50 is same, but LEV50 is a bit thicker (LEV50 has thicker cells inside, LEV40 - thinner) I think they can be replaced, if black plastic frames are ommited. We will try to do so, but not with LEV50. Instead we have ordered just separate internal cells, so we would save about 1 mm - 1,3 mm more per combined sub-cells pack. Of course I have ordered china clone of LEV50/LEV40 internals (as we do not own money printer), so probably lifetime will be shorter, but we can test the PHEV-ECU and factory BMS reaction to higher capacity. But difference won't be big - inside this battery chasis we can install 15 kWh max (let's say replacing LEV40 to LEV50).
I did calculation for space&power with 18650 grids (better cooling all in all with round cells) and 16kWh can be stored inside with NCR18650PF 2900mAh Panasonic. These are still priced acceptable as replacement, but still slightly more expensive than china-super-duper LEV subcells clones. Advantage is, that this is Tesla style (huh, maybe they won't burn at supercharger).
Theoretically we can have 18,7 kWh with "B" series of 18650 from Panasonic (but few kilos heavier and 50% more expensive than PF series).
Is here any sense with trying to improve range this way?

 

[maby]

We have bought PHEV for testing & tuning development, so I play a bit with batteries and BMS too.
I found (by internal dimensions) that theoretically as the height and length of LEV40 and LEV50 is same, but LEV50 is a bit thicker (LEV50 has thicker cells inside, LEV40 - thinner) I think they can be replaced, if black plastic frames are ommited. We will try to do so, but not with LEV50. Instead we have ordered just separate internal cells, so we would save about 1 mm - 1,3 mm more per combined sub-cells pack. Of course I have ordered china clone of LEV50/LEV40 internals (as we do not own money printer), so probably lifetime will be shorter, but we can test the PHEV-ECU and factory BMS reaction to higher capacity. But difference won't be big - inside this battery chasis we can install 15 kWh max (let's say replacing LEV40 to LEV50).
I did calculation for space&power with 18650 grids (better cooling all in all with round cells) and 16kWh can be stored inside with NCR18650PF 2900mAh Panasonic. These are still priced acceptable as replacement, but still slightly more expensive than china-super-duper LEV subcells clones. Advantage is, that this is Tesla style (huh, maybe they won't burn at supercharger).
Theoretically we can have 18,7 kWh with "B" series of 18650 from Panasonic (but few kilos heavier and 50% more expensive than PF series).
Is here any sense with trying to improve range this way?

I guess it depends entirely on the price! Figures of £3000 or more have been mentioned to replace the battery pack - at today's prices that buys you enough petrol to drive close to 30,000 miles! Even if you managed to double the EV range, it would take a long time to break even, let alone actually profit...

 

[jthspace]

Surely with current (allowed) battery technology, it is more of being environmentally sensible than expecting this technology to replace petrol / diesel powered vehicles.

If I lived in a major city and did most of my driving around town, then a Leaf or similar would be a sensible alternative as that would give a clear financial fuel cost benefit, although the purchase price compared to a similar other sized city car is still an unbalancing (financial) matter.

Now, if they would just release those nuclear batteries then we could drive until half-life and never have to recharge before the car rusted away . . . . . Bit of a bugger in the event of an accident or when companies take battery packs apart to see how they work

 

[jaapv]

Sounds like good business sense. In 8-10 years time there will certainly be a market for "affordable" battery replacements/upgrades on older EVs, like there are workshops now repairing Prius battery packs.

 

[zzcoopej]

Is here any sense with trying to improve range this way?

I think Mitsubishi spent a lot of time thinking about the best EV range vs price vs space compromise for the average PHEV consumer. Having a larger range battery is more likely to appeal to non-owners as people often comment that the 50km range is not enough, when in practice it covers a large percentage of trips if you can charge at home.

I have been tracking the battery capacity of my PHEV since September 2015 and even if the degradation was linear, the battery would still drive the car 25km (ie 50% of original range) when it is 10 years old. Reports suggest the graph should flatten out (battery degradation is highest when the battery is new), so cell failure is more likely to be the cause of impractically low range. This is why Mitsubishi say the battery should last the life of the vehicle. My PHEV App EvBatMon is storing battery capacity readings each time it runs, and will soon allow owners to compare our PHEV batteries to see what real world factors are causing the most degradation.

An iMiEV owner has already sucessfully replaced a single cell in that car's battery which is based on LEV50, so should a cell fail in the PHEV battery, replacing a single cell could prove a better option once warranty has expired.

 

[anko]

I think Mitsubishi spent a lot of time thinking about the best EV range vs price vs space compromise for the average PHEV consumer. Having a larger range battery is more likely to appeal to non-owners as people often comment that the 50km range is not enough, when in practice it covers a large percentage of trips if you can charge at home.

Depends on who's practice you are talking about. As an independent contractor, I have somehow managed to find assignments relatively close to home, the last 4 years. For a long time, my daily commute was 26 km one way. Now it is 40.

On the first assignment, for a long time I could not charge 'at the office', so I had to cover 52 km on one charge. In theory possible. In real live not possible. Not in our climate, at least. On my current assignment, I can make it to the office without burning fuel and back after recharging at the office. But only in the summer time, not in winter time. And not with a head wind. I think having a 14 kWh battery instead of a 12 kWh one would have increased MPG significantly and, more important, reduced the number of cold starts for my engine with at least 150 - 200 in the last two years. On the other hand, if my battery had been 14 or even 18 kWh, my assignments would probably have been a little bit further away :roll: . Bottom line: there is not such thing as enough capacity.

Other reasons for having a larger capacity:

- availability of unoccupied charge points: In the Netherlands it looks as if (PH)EV come for free with a box of cereal these day. So the number of charge points is falling behind big time. At our relatively small office complex, we have 4. Quit luxurious. But there are at least 12 (PH)EV owners that need to share them ....

- price of public charging: the kWh price for public charging is almost double the price of home charging.

 

[zzcoopej]

- price of public charging: the kWh price for public charging is almost double the price of home charging.

I guess there are 2 types of EV owners, those that want all trips to be 100% EV, and those who want lowest cost travel. If we were really the former, we would own a 90kWh Tesla P90D (or Model X to tow your caravan Anko), lol. Instead most of us want low cost travel so we own 12kWh PHEV instead.
It would cost $1000+ to increase the battery capacity to any significant degree, and this is unlikely to ever be recouped in normal usage. The first 50km of a trip being 100% EV is mostly going to save for say 80% of trips, whereas the next 50km might only save 30% of the time, and the next 100km maybe only 10% of the time. Diminishing returns.
I actually like the compromise between cost and 100% EV range of 50km that the PHEV offers. Much better than our iMiEV with 100km hard range limit.

 

[Bilbo59]

Until the car is fitted with an EV only button, increasing the battery capacity is pointless for many trips. I have a 3 mile commute to work and even with a full charge the engine kicks in for much of the journey if I use the heater!! I would be even more frustrated if I had spent extra money on a battery upgrade. Possibly worth it for those who live in climates that don't need the heater or air con!

 

[jaapv]

In the Netherlands it looks as if (PH)EV come for free with a box of cereal these day.

Well, they do, don't they? :mrgreen:

 

[vtechtuning]

Until the car is fitted with an EV only button, increasing the battery capacity is pointless for many trips. I have a 3 mile commute to work and even with a full charge the engine kicks in for much of the journey if I use the heater!! I would be even more frustrated if I had spent extra money on a battery upgrade. Possibly worth it for those who live in climates that don't need the heater or air con!

I focus on adding EV functionality (it will be provided by 3-sec pressing of save button (at least it is how I planned that) but it is a long way as dis-assembling of PHEV-ECU is not such piece of cake.

We also have bought second battery, used, from crashed car. Looks ok, so I can build my own replacement prototype and then swap and check ranges and capabilities on the dyno at company.
I will keep you informed, as I work at pHEV only during my free time and saturdays.

 

[Tipper]

Where are you based vtech?

 

[vtechtuning]

Poland - http://www.vtechtuning.eu
Sweden - http://www.vtech.se

We are not a typical car tuners - we develop technology for tuners, so protocols, checksums, seed-key algos, etc. Typical reverse engineering.

We produce dynos (separate division) : http://www.vtechdyno.eu

To be honest - we bought Outie PHEV + additional battery just for reverse engineering & tuning. But I personally drive it and I see it is fun to use such car.

 

[rkde]

I am one of those who want 100% EV mode and I did think that under the boot floor there is enough room for 4 ~ 6 cells as additional space which could be added without changing much and it would be a retro fit option - that I would go for.

I really hate the engine coming on for my 6 mile commute if I want to go quicker or use the heater, I want my eco button to not allow the engine to come on unless my foot presses the switch at the bottom of the peddle or I run out of electric and I would be more than happy to buy a module to wire in.
I had started to plan the system and think it could be done on a separate PCB but I just do not have time to develop ~ make it happen

 

[anko]

I focus on adding EV functionality (it will be provided by 3-sec pressing of save button (at least it is how I planned that) but it is a long way as dis-assembling of PHEV-ECU is not such piece of cake.

That would be great. There is two reasons why the engine would start unwanted:

- Power demand exceeding what the battery can provide
- Engine is started to support the electrical heater in providing warmth to the interior (of course only applicable to models with electric heater)

Personally, I would be most interested in the latter (as you have some control over the first, via your left foot). It is actually the AC ECU that requests the engine to start, not the PHEV ECU. When you send OBD request 2123 with header 688, you get a response with header 511. The fifth data byte of that response shows whether an engine start is requested.

An easy approach would be to automatically turn off the heater whenever you turn off the car (or at least set the temp to 15 deg.). A nicer approach would be to (conditionally) stop or block the 'engine start request' signal from the AC ECU that requests an engine start. When you are able to stop that signal from reaching the engine ECU, everything will continue to work normally. As a matter of fact, even the electric heater continues to heat the car. (Same as when you pull the fuse for the fuel pump: when you hit the limit of what the battery can provide in terms of power, the car will try to start the engine. This will fail due to a fuel pump malfunction (and you get warnings for this) but the car keeps working normally.) So maybe 'we' need to target the AC ECU for this part, not the PHEV ECU?

 

[gwatpe]

A bit more OT, but the car uses 12V logic systems for the modules and switches. We would need to use CMOS logic at 12V instead of the now, more common 5V for any additional components to interrupt signals.

I am still to interface the paddle operations to the brake switch, to cancel the cruise control, to allow hand cancelling of it. The button on the wheel is difficult to find at night without street lighting.

I am all for a bigger capacity battery, or even petrol tank. 100km range increase would be great. Make up for the too small petrol tank supplied, when there is a lot of vacant space under the boot.

 

[vtechtuning]

- Power demand exceeding what the battery can provide
- Engine is started to support the electrical heater in providing warmth to the interior (of course only applicable to models with electric heater)

I have started from PHEV-ECU and BMU because I'm total newcomer ("greenhorn"?) of EV tuning & tweaking. As I work already at these, I don't want to break, until these are fully reversed (so I can inject my code or tweak code freely).
I see that PHEV-ECU works as gateway with filters, as it uses two separate CAN ports - one connects to BMU and one - to the rest of the system. Here I see options for tweaks:
- change current limit (power increase, adding launch control etc) - nothing done yet, as I haven't clearly found that structure inside software.
- change discharge voltage limit - I did already one try with tweaking BMU and permit to discharge to zero (but this "zero" coded inside seems to be something like 17% -18% of real SOC) and this caused quite funny reaction of my car - usually (winter here) I see 42-44 km range (real is 40 as I tried and filmed it - with about 3kW heating) and after that tweak I could see 59 km (I did photos of course)- just after installing "corrected" BMU into car. I tried to drive till zero, it did 52 km (heating again, but not 3kW, as it was warmer outside, about zero) and shown kinda of yellow turtle (but no power loss like in Nissan Leaf, which I also analyze) - and just after maybe 100 - 200 meters with 15kW power drive (so ECO ECO, village empty road, 80 kmh) it started gasoline engine. Scaling of dash "battery level" must be fixed in dashboard, because it was showing "empty" as usual, after 40 km of polite cruising. But then until 52 km (when that yellow turtle came) it was no information at the dash, that battery level is even lower. It was small blue line over zero as always. But range meter was more or less ok (as always optimistic).

I drop some photos soon, when I load them to dropbox.

 

[anko]

Nice going

Not many people would like to lower their low water mark to 0, though :mrgreen: However, I can see that it would be great to be able to temporarily lower the low water mark by a few %. Yesterday I drove about 40 km pure EV and my engine started 200 meters from arriving at home. Had I been able to push a button that had temporarily lowered the low water mark from 26.5% (which I believe is the low speed low water mark) to 25%, I would have easily made it without this silly cold start.

BTW: I assume you are aware of these pictures: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14010#p14010?
BTW: I assume you are aware of this table: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11064#p11064?

 

[vtechtuning]

BTW: I assume you are aware of these pictures: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14010#p14010?
BTW: I assume you are aware of this table: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11064#p11064?

Network I know from service manual.
Power levels - no, this is new for me. My observations are just observations. But good to know.
Thx Anko!

 

[jaapv]

The button on the wheel is difficult to find at night without street lighting.

Well, I suggest you drive with lights then, as the buttons are lit.

 

[vtechtuning]

Here is an example of tweaked range (typical without tweak is 42-46 and real is 40-42 km or even slightly less)
With tweak it shows 58 (36 miles) (started with 59 but when I just moved a car from inside of workshop (just 20 metres....) it changed to 58.
Real range was 52 km (32-33 miles) and engine started. 52 km of average speed drive, not in town, with speeds up to 90 km/h and mild acceleration, no overtaking. Heating on, lights on (as it was night already). Outside temperature about -4C. Car was preheated because of standing in workshop for 2 days, with temp. of 17C inside. I set temp. of heating of cabin to 18C (maybe if I use lower temp, like 15,5 distance would be more real.
I do another test today, in 2 hours (as I wait to charge to full). I will try to drive with heating set to 15,5 or even no heating at all (I will see if I can resist as it is below zero but I preheat car in garage with electric fan/heater).