Some PHEV tidbits

[jaapv]

Following a recent thread in this forum, I had an interesting talk with a technical person from Mitsubishi.

Failing rear wheel bearings are the most prevalent technical failure of Outlanders in general. However, as they only affect less than 2.5% of the cars that cannot be considered a technical flaw. After all, one defect must be he most prevalent It is a heavy car, and the strain on the rear wheel bearings, especially on fast cornering under power is considerable.

As for battery defects, over the last three years there have been about 250 battery problems on the 30.000 cars driving in the Netherlands. All of these have been failing battery cooling systems, relays, loose contacts, etc. None has been a battery capacity one. Mitsubishi considers a battery dropping to 70% or less a as warranty claim. It hasn't happened yet.

A cold engine start when flooring the pedal cannot harm the ICE. The engine has been designed with this scenario in mind. In this respect the lack of running the engine at cold startup on a 2017 model, which allows a cold departure without the ICE coming in if the EV button is pressed, will not influence engine durability.

The increase of power flow 60 to 70 kW on the 2017 model has been used mainly to improve overall economy. There has been a small increase in performance as well.
The net result is a decrease in effective EV range.

Overall, compared to the 2013 model, the 2017 model is a markedly more developed car, but only through a large number of small improvements.

Disclaimer - a private conversation, not an official Mitsubishi statement. I am not a Mitsubishi representative.

 

[ian4x4]

Thanks jaapv, very interesting.

The increase of power flow 60 to 70 kW on the 2017 model has been used mainly to improve overall economy. There has been a small increase in performance as well.
The net result is a decrease in effective EV range.

This increase of available electric power (16% ?) should help enormously when stepping off in the 'EV only' mode, as well stepping off in the normal 'battery/hybrid' mode.

It seems like a worthwhile development.

 

[greendwarf]

Following a recent thread in this forum, I had an interesting talk with a technical person from Mitsubishi.

Thanks jaapv - very interesting, especially regarding the batteries

 

[SolarBoy]

Thank you jaapv

 

[Steepndeep]

Thanks for the info jaapv. Good to know. Just out of curiosity onte the ICE longevity:

Down to which temperature will a "floored coldstart" not affect engine lifetime? I had one whole week of -45 C at my parents wintercottage some years ago.

And further to this topic, is that with then same engine oil or with specific oil for winter?

 

[jaapv]

The way it was told to me there seems to be no lower limit, but I really couldn't say. This was a Dutch Mitsubishi person and over here we don't consider such temperatures. It would be a miracle for the car battery to do anything -45 anyway. I think it is well below specification.

 

[elm70]

Thanks jaapv, very interesting.

This increase of available electric power (16% ?) should help enormously when stepping off in the 'EV only' mode, as well stepping off in the normal 'battery/hybrid' mode.

It seems like a worthwhile development.

70Kw from the battery ... it is a "simple" configuration also in the old PHEV ... vtech did show this, together with pure EV mode, some months ago in a video ... unfortunately he did never release this "solution" (he decided to sell something else )

It is looking to me that Mitsubishi, just check what people look for in the PHEV, and decided to provide these little changes

Use 70kw vs 60kw .. has a minor impact on range and on battery life ... so the decisionj to go for 60kw was conservative ... still no so wise, since by design current PHEV .. have 60kw "discharge" .. when accelerating .. and same 60kw "recharge" on regenerate brake ... 60kw recharge on B5 does short the battery life way more then 70kw power vs 60kw

Pure EV mode, it is finally remove a bad design mistake after 3 years :shock:

Will be a wise decision to offer these upgrade to the old PHEV ... but ... I don't expect them to be wise

Our only hope is vtech ...

 

[jaapv]

We have no idea whether Mitsubishi made design changes to the motors or wiring to accommodate the higher power. Simply transplanting this to the previous model might not be such a good scheme.
BTW my spokesperson said the EV button works differently from the Vtech box, of which he was well aware.

 

[simonrh]

Never mind the battery and performance, android auto (or apple whatever) means the end of some of the crappiest bits of MMCS hopefully!
:lol:

 

[elm70]

We have no idea whether Mitsubishi made design changes to the motors or wiring to accommodate the higher power. Simply transplanting this to the previous model might not be such a good scheme.
BTW my spokesperson said the EV button works differently from the Vtech box, of which he was well aware.

I was not speaking of the vtech box ... I was speaking of the vtech ECU set up, shown in his youTube that show exactly 70kw and EV mode (the box is just a "hack" on the drive by wire line ... a smart hack .. but still a hack for my book .. what was shown and sort of promise t first by vtech was a different "level")

Nice to see mitsubishi people are following vtech :ugeek:

Yes, from 60 to 70kw .. it may have some minor technical implication (like the cable size and other dimensioning), but I believe it is just a matter of having less "safety" margin .. since a good design should take care to over dimension these for safety

Still pure EV mode, when selecting ECO ... is a pure firmware change, that could be retro-fit in every PHEV .. if they just want to do it

I think if they even put a price tag of 250 euro .. many people will go for it .. I will be the first

 

[anko]

I think if they even put a price tag of 250 euro .. many people will go for it .. I will be the first

As long as ECO becomes the default setting .... :mrgreen:

 

[jaapv]

Yes, from 60 to 70kw .. it may have some minor technical implication (like the cable size and other dimensioning), but I believe it is just a matter of having less "safety" margin .. since a good design should take care to over dimension these for safety

I do not really regard safety margins as minor.

 

[elm70]

Yes, from 60 to 70kw .. it may have some minor technical implication (like the cable size and other dimensioning), but I believe it is just a matter of having less "safety" margin .. since a good design should take care to over dimension these for safety

I do not really regard safety margins as minor.

Just for add some reasoning, you may remember that vtech did find the code for change the power provided from battery, and he did also try up to 110kw output from battery in pure EV mode

I don't expect any difference in cabling and electronic between 60kw and 70kw ... 110kw has been reported by vtech that did cause to push quite down the voltage of the lithium batteries .. so possibly 110kw is above the continuous discharge of the battery, but I'm quite sure it is fine for a quick power bust ... just for no more then 2 or 3 seconds

Anyhow, more then 60 or 70kw .. which is a little difference ... the best thing is to have a pure Ev mode ... that mean be able to use in confidence all the EV power available from the battery without risking to start the ICE

Also it will be nice to have car heater without ICE starting too

On EV mode, you should agree, it is just a firmware issue .. which it will be more then welcome as upgrade for the "old" PHEV, and not only for the 2017 model

 

[jaapv]

The EV button is hardware and has a redesigned button array in front of the selector lever, but I agree, they could use one of the unused swtich slots on the dash.

 

[SolarBoy]

I'll eat my hat if we get a free upgrade; this isn't Tesla

 

[elm70]

The EV button is hardware and has a redesigned button array in front of the selector lever, but I agree, they could use one of the unused swtich slots on the dash.

Solution can be also extremely simple

Like .. long pressing the ECO button ... this can activate the EV mode .. on the display there is no issue on show EV mode instead of Eco .. since is a dot matrix display

Anyhow .. it is not a tesla .. they still use the old business model to screw up as much money as possible .. they want us to but a new PHEV for get the feature (minimum R&D cost, and maximum cash flow, in the short term view) ... they see few extra order as a plus, and don't see the massive advantage of having a boost of their brand ... they have already a leading market product with the PHEV ... so ... they are in "lazy" mode .. I believe they are not willing to get a better "image"

 

[ian4x4]

ELM70 WROTE Anyhow .. it is not a Tesla .. they still use the old business model to screw up as much money as possible .. they want us to but a new PHEV for get the feature (minimum R&D cost, and maximum cash flow, in the short term view) ... they see few extra order as a plus, and don't see the massive advantage of having a boost of their brand ... they have already a leading market product with the PHEV ... so ... they are in "lazy" mode .. I believe they are not willing to get a better "image"


I think you will find that Mitsubishi are just short of funds to develop their unique PHEV power architecture.
Now Renault/Nissan are on board I am hoping for better things.

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/mitsubishi-has-joined-renault-nissan-heres-what-you-need-know

 

[jaapv]

The EV button is hardware and has a redesigned button array in front of the selector lever, but I agree, they could use one of the unused swtich slots on the dash.

Solution can be also extremely simple

Like .. long pressing the ECO button ... this can activate the EV mode .. on the display there is no issue on show EV mode instead of Eco .. since is a dot matrix display

Anyhow .. it is not a tesla .. they still use the old business model to screw up as much money as possible .. they want us to but a new PHEV for get the feature (minimum R&D cost, and maximum cash flow, in the short term view) ... they see few extra order as a plus, and don't see the massive advantage of having a boost of their brand ... they have already a leading market product with the PHEV ... so ... they are in "lazy" mode .. I believe they are not willing to get a better "image"

They made a design decision on one model; they made another design decision on a following model. that is the way the world goes... do you seriously think that they expect one owner of an older model to buy a new car over one button?
And yes, this is indeed not a Tesla. It is not a Arabian steed, it is a workhorse.

 

[elm70]

They made a design decision on one model; they made another design decision on a following model. that is the way the world goes... do you seriously think that they expect one owner of an older model to buy a new car over one button?
And yes, this is indeed not a Tesla. It is not a Arabian steed, it is a workhorse.

They made a decision 3 years ago .. and it has been updated now .. this means they understood the importance of allow a pure EV mode in a car driven by people that care to drive in EV mode

Do I expect people to buy the new model because of this .. YES .. I DO ... EV mode is double benefit ... real green, and plus it free on the possibility to drive the car up to the dynamic potential .. back to enjoy driving (something that it is not, since control on gas pedal must be consider all the time, else it get mainly penalties ... people that want full power for overtake press charge button in advance... full press the accelerator ... or even exceed the EV limit .. imply have a delay on having the power requested .. so waste .. power if not instant is useless in my book ) ... this factor does accelerate the replacement process from PHEV customer without budget constrain.

Yes .. it is not Tesla, nor Apple .. but maybe it is like Sony .. which does provide today Android 6 update to phone sold 3 years ago ...

If cost is little and benefit is "valuable" ... it is about respect the customer .. and strength the brand image ... and bust future sales for many following years .. this is the logic on adding EV mode also to old PHEV

As mention by "ian4x4" .. unfortunately Mitsubishi has bigger problem to take care ... future is not looking bright anyhow ... but we can expect this nice PHEV technology evolved and used in more stream line cars from Renault or Nissan .. hopefully without the "joke" of battery leasing from Renault .. the twizy could be sold as hot cookies .. but their business model with battery leasing "sucks"

 

[ian4x4]

ELM70 WROTE
Anyhow, more then 60 or 70kw .. which is a little difference ... the best thing is to have a pure Ev mode ... that mean be able to use in confidence all the EV power available from the battery without risking to start the ICE

Also it will be nice to have car heater without ICE starting too


I think that these things will be overcome in the future, just don't hold your breath while waiting, I am sure that Mitsubishi are planning the next model already, and even trying to make allowances for even further developments.

I have always thought that to achieve the SUV go anywhere power and a better off the mark acceleration in EV mode a simple two speed epicyclic gearbox needs to be fitted. This could double the apparent torque at the wheels, and even if only fitted to the back axle of the Outlander PHEV would make a vast difference.

As far as the cabin heating and cooling problem, an investment in a proper 'heat pump' system would make it more efficient.

What I am interested in is how quickly will the power ramp up to from standstill to the new 70kw limit, and how long will it be allowed to sustain this higher level, when only drawing from the 'unchanged?' battery in the new EV mode.