4WD system does not work, I chase Mitsu for solution.

[Grigou]

To be honest, I think you are expecting the car to be something it is not. It is a 4WD softroader, not a 4x4 offroader. For that purpose Mitsubishi sells the Pajero, and to a limited extent the Outlander Diesel.
So yes, if you expected the car to perform like a Defender, you bought the wrong car. Whether you were misled would be for a judge to decide, not by an Internet forum.

Ok I agree, we don't own a pure 4x4 like the Defender.

But let's compare it with a Honda CR-V (witch I had owned, 3d generation) : my CR-V was better when one front wheel was spinning. Torque was immediately transferred to the rear axle.
The "no PHEV" Outlander must be better too, I presume...

The PHEV is a good car on snow because it as a good traction in 4WD Lock mode... but this traction becomes very limited if one wheel begins to spin. We must live with that, or buy another car !
I must say that I'm living very well with that because I don't drive on snow very often

 

[Steepndeep]

Hmm I think you are doing Martin unjustice.

We have many people buying Subaru Outbacks in order to pull trailers through muddy fields and they perform OK. They have no difflock what so ever. The PHEV could be seen as an Outback with locked center diff (almost) so should perform better than an Outback.

I tried to find a muddy, icy and steep road this evening (hard with this laugh of a winter) and tried to accelerate and see what happens. The car moved ahead nice and well. However I could not make it to spin the wheels abruptly, which I would like sometimes. And now you wonder why I'd like that. If you have a heavy trailer in mud you need enormous torque for 1-2 seconds to get the trailer out of the little hole the wheels have made to get going. I could not get the PHEV to do that. But I can do that in the Subaru with flooring the accelerator and working the clutch. So in just the first 1-2 seconds of get going I miss the torque "peak" I can get in an ICE car with reving the engine and working the clutch. And I think that is what kills the car as a puller of a trailer in mud.

Now the car has never been advertised as a trailer puller in Sweden. However it is really promoted as an adventure car by Renata Chlumska (first Swedish woman on Mount Everest) and a car with extremely advanced and good 4WD system.

 

[jaapv]

Well, either I do the buyer with high off-road expectations or the car an injustice. In fact, I think it is not realistic to expect a suburban SUV-type vehicle to drag heavy trailers through the mud. That is more like Ferguson territory.
In the real world the PHEV performs unexpectedly well on snowy slopes, slippery roads and the occasional ungraded track. I don't think it was designed with full 4x4 performance in mind.

 

[Trex]

One front and one back, i can not tell right or left, to dangerous to go out and check

What i am trying to tell is that the answer from Mitsu i got to make sure to have the batteries fully charged, to get the most out of the 4WD, is ridiculous, The power and torque from one e-motor is enough pull the car or spin the wheel on almost every surface.
Why only one e-motor?, that can only be the case when one wheel/axel is spinning, and that friction is not cero.

I uses my car very different from most other user, i use my car to work in rough terain and surfaces, not just get ME to work.
Therefore i get into situations many have not experienced, And as i have used my ML for the same puropse for several years, I have one 4WD car working, and one not working as expected.

Hi MartinH,

Do you have a set of tyre chains you could test the PHEV with.?

I have a set here in Australia I could lend you.

If it works good we could then maybe look at tyres.

After all this is for your work and time is money.

Regards Trex.

 

[anko]

However I could not make it to spin the wheels abruptly, which I would like sometimes. And now you wonder why I'd like that. If you have a heavy trailer in mud you need enormous torque for 1-2 seconds to get the trailer out of the little hole the wheels have made to get going. I could not get the PHEV to do that. But I can do that in the Subaru with flooring the accelerator and working the clutch. So in just the first 1-2 seconds of get going I miss the torque "peak" I can get in an ICE car with reving the engine and working the clutch. And I think that is what kills the car as a puller of a trailer in mud.

There is a Dutch website that is all about towing caravans. The people behind this site say that, in some occasions, a FWD car is to be preferred over a RWD or AWD car for just that reason: it is much easier to force the wheels to spin.

Even in an ICE car, IMHO there is no such thing as 'peak torque for two seconds' when you make the wheels spin. All you get is (at best) max torque of the ICE (*). But in order to get that, indeed you need to bridge the gap between the RPM at which max torque is delivered and the stationary wheels. For this you can either use a slipping clutch or spinning wheels. The people responsible for this site say spinning wheels is to be preferred over a slipping clutch, as tires are replaced at a much lower cost than clutches. Makes sense :mrgreen:

(*) A car with a torque converter is a somewhat different story. It can actually enhance ICE torque by making the 'clutch' slip. But as you were talking about 'working the clutch' obviously you were talking about a manual gearbox car, right? A CVT may have some advantages too.

We however, do not have an ICE (well, we do, but ... ;-) ) and I believe we do not have a need to make the wheels spin / we gain no advantage from making the wheels spin. In our case, max torque is available from 0 RPM, so there is no RPM gap to bridge. Compared to ICE cars, our car should (and IMHO does) excel for example when towing uphill in stop and go traffic. Think about that, to some, famous piece of motorway when approaching the Gotthard tunnel in Switserland. On a hot, congested day even many solo cars don't make it up there without ruining their clutches. Recovery services are on standby all the time. I actually did an extensive test drive with the guys from this website (like I mentioned before, mastering for example a 17% incline while towing my 1500 kg caravan and having 4 adults in the car) and they were very impressed with the performance of the car. Not so much with how awfully long it took to get up to a decent speed, but with the fact that it managed to do it a quite a few times in a row in a very short time frame. And without wheel spin or slipping clutch. And without running hot. After getting used to the PHEV taking its time to get up to speed, they said it inspired confidence. They said that, although many cars would be faster, they could not think of any common petrol or diesel car that could do it so often in such short timeframe without braking down.

We should not forget the ICE torque is not nearly as important as torque at the wheels. And for this, gear ratio is a very important factor (hence the advantage a CVT may have). And having the e-motors connected to the wheels with (although different front and rear) a single gear that supports speeds up to 170 km/h, we know that the gear ratio can not be all to advantageous towards towing / climbing. On the other hand, the high RPM limit on the e-motors give the designers something to work with.

 

[MartinH]

Very interesting!
We manage to devide the owners of the PHEV into two teams.
Team one, 5% of the PHEV users think i am right and the 4WD does not functon or performe as advertised, and Mitsu have to improve.
Thanks steepndepp!
Team two, 95% of the PHEV users, think I am stupid to even imagine a 4WD car to give power to 4 Wheels when needed, If i wanted that I should have purchased another car.

To satisfye both teams, I just LOVE the car, my first 20.000km is handled with less that 130 liters of fuel, EVEN often pulling a very heavy trailer. Planning, no heating and working offensive with the "save" button is my recepy for success!

And some answers, I will not purchase chanis, I will start my ML, About the Austraila Chains, i think they will be upsidedown! I will not change tyres, I will start my ML, I will not purchase a Defender, I will start my ML.
Last week the ML did not start! Problems with the glow plugs, have to fix.

But still, 4WD does not performe my opinion, could be "alternative facts"

 

[Grigou]

Well, either I do the buyer with high off-road expectations or the car an injustice. In fact, I think it is not realistic to expect a suburban SUV-type vehicle to drag heavy trailers through the mud. That is more like Ferguson territory.
In the real world the PHEV performs unexpectedly well on snowy slopes, slippery roads and the occasional ungraded track. I don't think it was designed with full 4x4 performance in mind.

It seems that the Alps are not in the real world because my PHEV doesn't perform unexpectedly well on snowy slopes. An Honda CR-V performs better when one wheel begin to spin. As owner, I've driven both of them on snowy tracks in the Alps, just for trying (it was funny with both of them, but one is better than the other, at least that's my experience).
Next time I will try to do a video !

MartinH, I'am in your team
And I love my PHEV too.

 

[Trex]

Hi MartinH,

Do you have a set of tyre chains you could test the PHEV with.?

I have a set here in Australia I could lend you.

If it works good we could then maybe look at tyres.

After all this is for your work and time is money.

Regards Trex.

And some answers, I will not purchase chanis, I will start my ML, About the Austraila Chains, i think they will be upsidedown! I will not change tyres, I will start my ML, I will not purchase a Defender, I will start my ML.
Last week the ML did not start! Problems with the glow plugs, have to fix.

But still, 4WD does not performe my opinion, could be "alternative facts"

But you can turn the chains over, spin them around and put them on opposite side (to me) and then they will fit your Northern Hemisphere car.

Or you can start the ML. Oh that's right. It won't start.

 

[anko]

It seems that the Alps are not in the real world because my PHEV doesn't perform unexpectedly well on snowy slopes. An Honda CR-V performs better ....

CR-V has nothing to do with it. In order to decide, you have to compare your expectations to those of Jaap :mrgreen:

BTW: this guy does not seem to have much problems when loosing grip (look at 0:26):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WL-csch2rg

 

[Steepndeep]

@anko @jaapv and others

Well I think I need to make a video as well because we seem to discuss different situations. I think the car performs well at speed (say above 20 km/h) with snow, ice, slippery roads etc. I also like the quietness of the car. And it is 4WD but it has no diffs but that is sort of OK at speed because when you move reasonable fast one wheel will be on a very slippery surface for a short time only.

Now to get going on a steep slippery incline, or pull a trailer with boat up a slippery ramp is a completely different story. One wheel starts spinning you are reduced to half power on the PHEV. And what bothers me is that you cannot "floor it" as you can on old ICE cars.

I know everyone keeps saying it has maximum torque at 0 rpm but as I tried to test yesterday I was not impressed at all. Steep incline and 2 left wheels on mud and two right ones on Snow/Ice. The car pulls away nicely, even if I floor the pedal, which tells me there is not too much start torque and power. It was so slippery so I should with my old Suzuki and flooring the engine be able to force spin the right wheels and no get moving quickly as they span too much. That proves I have more power than the traction can support. Not so in the PHEV. So if you are stuck and want to yank yourself up I think we do not have sufficient torque.

And yes it is a softroader, I know that, so not taking it out in the woods

And speaking of chains. They will not help as you then need even more torque to take advantage of them.

Will wait for the right movie weather :mrgreen:

 

[anko]

And speaking of chains. They will not help as you then need even more torque to take advantage of them.

I would think that how much torque you need is dictated by vehicle weight and incline, not the amount of grip. Yes, you need more torque to get the wheels spinning if you have more grip, but by itself, that should never be the objective. Not for this car. Or should it?

 

[Steepndeep]

@anko

Beg to differ on that movie. Does not seem to be slippery at all, hard sand and rocks. Would like to see it after a couple of days of rain :mrgreen:

The PHEV they are rallying with looks interesting. Is that the same purpose-built we saw last year in some ads. Was a on-off car with tubular frame etc. Or is this a standard PHEV being reinforced?

 

[anko]

Beg to differ on that movie. Does not seem to be slippery at all, hard sand and rocks. Would like to see it after a couple of days of rain :mrgreen:

There is no grip. Does it matter whether that is because of low pressure or because of a slippery surface? The wheel spins freely. That is all that matters.

When the wheels are sunk into the ground and the car needs to climb out, that is a different story. But then we are really back to incline ;-) I think better traction is a plus then.

The video seems to demontstrate that a cross-axle situation does not have to be a problem. Therefor, personally I think it is all related to one of two things:

- simply not enough of torque available from a single motor
- not enough of torque available from one motor, due to the software limiting the motor output when the other motor has no grip

EDIT: Please don't kill me. Keep in mind I am reasoning from a pure theoretical perspective. A perspective that may utterly fail ;-)

 

[jaapv]

Well, either I do the buyer with high off-road expectations or the car an injustice. In fact, I think it is not realistic to expect a suburban SUV-type vehicle to drag heavy trailers through the mud. That is more like Ferguson territory.
In the real world the PHEV performs unexpectedly well on snowy slopes, slippery roads and the occasional ungraded track. I don't think it was designed with full 4x4 performance in mind.

It seems that the Alps are not in the real world because my PHEV doesn't perform unexpectedly well on snowy slopes. An Honda CR-V performs better when one wheel begin to spin. As owner, I've driven both of them on snowy tracks in the Alps, just for trying (it was funny with both of them, but one is better than the other, at least that's my experience).
Next time I will try to do a video !

MartinH, I'am in your team
And I love my PHEV too.

I suppose the Italian Alps are different from the French :lol: I had no problems at all up a 15% incline with about 30 cm of fresh snow on top of compact. Yes, including hairpins. Hankook EVO winter tyres.

 

[MrPastry]

I have only driven mine across a wet field & it did ok. No drama.
I'd love to see how it would cope with mud & snow.



The Outlander Phev Product & Sales Feature Guide 2014 (INTERNAL DEALER USE ONLY) states:

 

[jaapv]

I wonder what the "however"stands for. :?: :roll:

 

[Esparza]

Today i tested to press 4WD button while driving, this was the result:

Normal Mode:

4WD

Each time i pressed it the front motor delivered more power and rear motor less. For me it has no much sense, any idea?

I think that even it is not a 4x4, with some software change performance from stop when one wheel loose traction will be much better.

 

[maby]

I think we are missing another aspect of the PHEV design here - why did they make it 4WD given that it is not a very competent 4WD?

The designers concluded that they needed to put more than 100hp onto the ground in order to get the performance they required - and they had to do this using just electric motors since the petrol engine could not couple to the drive train at much below 50mph. A single electric motor of that power output would be a large, heavy and expensive thing - causing all sorts of problems for the designers and resulting in a car with a poor weight distribution and less than perfect power distribution. With modern electronics, it is quite easy to get two drive motors to play nicely together; the result is a car which is probably little, if any more expensive than the same body shell with a single big motor jammed in, better weight distribution and a headline 4WD capability - which has to be a good marketing feature. They knew perfectly well that the vast majority of 4WD SUVs that are sold never go further off-road than the gymkhana field in weather that is reasonably warm and dry - well within the capabilities of a PHEV and giving them a decent target marketplace.

 

[zzcoopej]

Thought this video of a Tesla X slipping about in snow might be interesting in terms of EV 4x4 capability (and poor tyre choice!)

https://youtu.be/f4NhCxm-vlE

 

[Grigou]

Well, either I do the buyer with high off-road expectations or the car an injustice. In fact, I think it is not realistic to expect a suburban SUV-type vehicle to drag heavy trailers through the mud. That is more like Ferguson territory.
In the real world the PHEV performs unexpectedly well on snowy slopes, slippery roads and the occasional ungraded track. I don't think it was designed with full 4x4 performance in mind.

It seems that the Alps are not in the real world because my PHEV doesn't perform unexpectedly well on snowy slopes. An Honda CR-V performs better when one wheel begin to spin. As owner, I've driven both of them on snowy tracks in the Alps, just for trying (it was funny with both of them, but one is better than the other, at least that's my experience).
Next time I will try to do a video !

MartinH, I'am in your team
And I love my PHEV too.

I suppose the Italian Alps are different from the French :lol: I had no problems at all up a 15% incline with about 30 cm of fresh snow on top of compact. Yes, including hairpins. Hankook EVO winter tyres.

I have no winter tyres, and my tyres have 34 000 km. So I must admit that I have not so much grip

Anyway, it's not the point. The point is that when one wheel is slipping (on snow or mud), there isn't enough torque in the other axle to move the car if the incline is too high.
15 % incline (oh dear, what a slope !) + about 30 cm of fresh snow (oh dear, ...) : did you stop and tried to start again ?

I'm sure you did not. Your only purpose was to still go on

On 30 cm of snow it is rather difficult to move on a flat road (I know it's not impossible since I did it, but it's just difficult). And it is noisy : the clearance ground is 18 or 19 cm, and this sort of experiment is not very good for the exhaust flanges. I must say that when I experienced this, the snow wasn't very "light", it was even a little "crunchy" ...