Charging While Driving

[JFIN]

I've been reading through these discussions for a few days - just trying to understand how the car ultimately works in a real life environment and i have one question if i may. Can you charge the Batteries while driving? the reason why i ask is because im reading about how people cant get to a charge point at work for example and may need to drive 1/3 of the way TO work using fuel and all of the journey home using Fuel. I understand the regenerative braking system will charge the battery to a certain extent, but suspect this is Minimal? but to narrow my question - while driving using the petrol engine will the batteries charge automatically, or do you need to select this method? and if its an option does it use more fuel as a result? How long would you need to drive on Petrol to fully charge your batteries?

Many thanks

 

[maddogsetc]

There is a 'Charge' feature that allows you to fully charge the batteries from the ICE but it's hard to see why you would use that in the situation you describe. The car does a good job of managing the batteries, running the ICE as and when required to provide just enough charge to keep running on EV (called series hybrid mode) or to drive the wheels directly at speeds over about 40mph (parallel hybrid mode).

 

[JFIN]

Thank you for the reply maddogsetc. If my battery has depleted and i have another say 30 miles to my destination which I'm driving using the Petrol engine now - Does the engine automatically recharge the battery? so when i arrive at my destination my battery has again some charge ?

 

[Hypermiler]

+1 maddogs

Welcome jfin! - the car is probably a lot cleverer than you expect! It will charge the batteries automatically, but only to keep them at a lowish level (it always tries to keep 20-30% of battery capacity in reserve) . Charging will take a little more petrol, but the car tries to charge when the ICE isn't working too hard. If YOU choose to charge the battery - you press the "charge" button but it will take some fuel and isn't worth doing unless you are driving in mountains, preparing to tow uphill or heading for a no-emission zone.

Try a decent length test drive, run the battery down and see what happens...

PS - just seen your other query - no, when you arrive at your destination, the car will have pretty much no battery (i.e. 20% or so) and will run the ICE when you drive away again, unless you plug-in. Generally it would be annoying to arrive at a charger with the battery charged following petrol use.

Cheers
H

 

[gwatpe]

Charging while driving is related ultimately to the load and the driving conditions. I have to drive my PHEV in hilly terrain and the car seems to work better with some reserve battery so I use charge mode or save mode on the road at higher speeds and reserve the EV driving to stop start traffic. I can not get used to the ICE revving like it does in series hybrid mode in more challenging power needs. PHEV IMHO works better in parallel hybrid with the electrics handling the peaks and troughs of power that the ICE misses out on. Sometimes it is not just about efficiency, but driver preference as well. Luckily the Lithium battery is very efficient. Recharging from a power point when you were able to, for most would be the best option.

 

[maby]

Thank you for the reply maddogsetc. If my battery has depleted and i have another say 30 miles to my destination which I'm driving using the Petrol engine now - Does the engine automatically recharge the battery? so when i arrive at my destination my battery has again some charge ?

The car will never allow the battery to "fully discharge" - it will attempt to run as a pure electric vehicle until the battery falls to a low threshold - currently believed to be about 20% charge and it will then switch to what they call "serial hybrid mode" and will not allow the battery to drop lower. In this mode, it is effectively functioning as a petrol-electric car - a petrol engine car with an electric transmission. The battery is only used to start the engine and the engine only puts enough charge back into the battery to replenish the charge used for starting.

You can force it to recharge the battery from the engine by pressing the "Charge" button, but it is not clear that this serves any purpose except in a few special circumstances such as expecting to have to climb some steep hills in the near future when you will benefit from the power boost that the battery can give. In normal driving conditions, it is likely to harm your fuel economy since it introduces additional losses associated with charging and discharging the battery.

 

[Graham]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

 

[JFIN]

Thanks Guys, that's certainly answered my question. Anyone know how long the batteries last before needing replacement ? Nissan Leaf(being a fully electric car) will last up to 7 years but efficiency will begin to drop from year 4/5 - Nissan offer a replacement finance package to cover the cost in 7 years to completely replace (about €9k I think i remember the dealer saying)

 

[JFIN]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

Graham - I was hoping that would be the case, otherwise it seems inneficient to not harness the power - especially if the loss is small.

 

[maby]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

It would be interesting to conduct some scientific tests of this theory! I do the same 150 mile motorway round trip every weekend with no possibility of charging - I will top the tank to brim full and try with and without the charge button and do the sums...

Watch this space....

 

[maddogsetc]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

It would be interesting to conduct some scientific tests of this theory! I do the same 150 mile motorway round trip every weekend with no possibility of charging - I will top the tank to brim full and try with and without the charge button and do the sums...

Watch this space....

It would indeed be very interesting and thanks to JFIN/Graham/Maby for raising this point. I have to admit that I've often puzzled over this as logic tells me that the only way that the PHEV can get more power out of the petrol engine to run the generator is by increasing revs, yet as we 'know', in parallel mode ICE is connected to the wheels via a clutch, not a torque converter so how does it get more revs?

Conversely if it's able to run the generator without drawing more power from ICE (and therefore using more petrol), why does it not always charge when in parallel mode.

Furthermore, as parallel mode kicks in at about 40-45mph and top speed is say 90-95 mph, how has Mitsubishi got the engine to provide such a wide power band / flat torque curve?

Perhaps the 'clutch' is not quite as simple as it's generally assumed? And presumably there must be another clutch of some sort to engage the generator?

 

[user 422]

Found this on another site that referred to GKN multi-mode Transmission...

Hole on the front-left is for the generator
Front-middle is the clutch that connects ICE+ generator to the axle.
Hole on the front, bottom-right is for the axle itself
Hole on the front, top-right top is for he front E-motor
At the back will be the ICE

The brand new GKN Multi-Mode eTransmission makes its debut on the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV – the world’s first Twin Motor 4WD Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle with ability to charge on-the-go.

Mitsubishi Motors’ new Twin Motor 4WD Plug-in Hybrid Electric crossover is powered by two 60kW electric motors, one in the front and the other one in the rear. They are fed by a large capacity lithium-ion battery. A petrol engine and a generator are also fitted.

The GKN Multi-Mode eTransmission used as front transaxle offers optimum performance in three different driving modes with two different power sources:

Pure EV mode, with the vehicle’s front axle and rear axle driven only by the electric motors, the front motor being attached to the GKN Multi-Mode eTransmission. Energy is sourced from the battery.
Series Hybrid mode, with the combustion engine driving a generator to charge the traction battery on-the-go whilst the car is still only driven by its front and rear electric motors;
Parallel Hybrid mode, with the combustion engine’s torque feeding through to the GKN Multi-Mode eTransmission to the front wheels via a hydraulic clutch which remains disengaged in both other modes. Front and rear motors then supplement the petrol engine. Battery charging still occurs too.
The GKN Multi-Mode eTransmission’s lightweight, compact design honed for high efficiency adds to the car’s extraordinary low CO2 tailpipe emission of 44g/km.

 

[user 258]

It would indeed be very interesting and thanks to JFIN/Graham/Maby for raising this point. I have to admit that I've often puzzled over this as logic tells me that the only way that the PHEV can get more power out of the petrol engine to run the generator is by increasing revs, yet as we 'know', in parallel mode ICE is connected to the wheels via a clutch, not a torque converter so how does it get more revs?

You can get more power out of the engine without increasing revs just by feeding it more fuel. A bit like cruising at 60mph in a conventional car/gearbox and then pressing the accelerator which increases your speed by putting more power out at the same rpm, although the rpm will increase with the speed as it does with the PHEV.

Conversely if it's able to run the generator without drawing more power from ICE (and therefore using more petrol), why does it not always charge when in parallel mode.

You can't get power from the generator without using more fuel. But when the engine is running at a fixed rpm and the computer decides it isn't running efficiently (i.e. it can produce more power than it is currently producing but in a more efficient way (similar to an engine not being efficient at tickover)) it will charge the battery. At least in my car, when driving at 65-70mph, except when climbing inclines, I find that the energy display shows there is usually charge going to the battery. This is probably more of a trickle charge compared to when the charge button is selected which should cause the engine to run at max power at its fixed rpm and put all the excess power to the battery.

Furthermore, as parallel mode kicks in at about 40-45mph and top speed is say 90-95 mph, how has Mitsubishi got the engine to provide such a wide power band / flat torque curve?

They haven't. They use the electric motors to add extra power when needed, especially at lower speeds/rpm. With the foot right down it will stay in series hybrid mode until 74mph putting 160bhp to the wheels. At 74mph it will engage parrallel hybrid mode which is able to put an additional 40bhp (200bhp total, give or take) to the road.

Perhaps the 'clutch' is not quite as simple as it's generally assumed? And presumably there must be another clutch of some sort to engage the generator?

I think the generator is always connected to the engine and only varies in the loading it applies to produce the energy needed.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[ufo]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

I agree. Depending on situation charging can be effective. Such as you are on a freeway with no remaining EV range and urban driving is involved at the end of your jurney. You can hit charge and establish some EV range to run last leg of your journey (urban driving) pure EV. Otherwise PHEV would run in Series mode with min. battery level allowed. I don't like this type of running, as someone also mentioned I just don't like the sound of ICE in high load in series mode, it just kills the relative silence of PHEV. It definitely helps to have some reserve (reserve above PHEV's min reserve) in this situation but would rather run pure EV when I can. Of course you can end up with some EV range left when you get to your destination (mostly home) but driving PHEV for 2 months I almost now know how much of pure EV range I would need to reach home after exiting from each free/motorway. So I always get home with with either zero and/or 1-2 km EV range left.

 

[ufo]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

I recently travelled for 50 plus miles on a motorway as above and recovered over 15 miles of battery range for use later.

I find that B0 is excellent for coasting, and use B1-B5 to slow for junctions etc. With a range of 28-30 miles showing when full charged I normally cover 32-35 miles before the battery needs petrol generated power.

It would be interesting to conduct some scientific tests of this theory! I do the same 150 mile motorway round trip every weekend with no possibility of charging - I will top the tank to brim full and try with and without the charge button and do the sums...

Watch this space....

It would indeed be very interesting and thanks to JFIN/Graham/Maby for raising this point. I have to admit that I've often puzzled over this as logic tells me that the only way that the PHEV can get more power out of the petrol engine to run the generator is by increasing revs, yet as we 'know', in parallel mode ICE is connected to the wheels via a clutch, not a torque converter so how does it get more revs?

Conversely if it's able to run the generator without drawing more power from ICE (and therefore using more petrol), why does it not always charge when in parallel mode.

Furthermore, as parallel mode kicks in at about 40-45mph and top speed is say 90-95 mph, how has Mitsubishi got the engine to provide such a wide power band / flat torque curve?

Perhaps the 'clutch' is not quite as simple as it's generally assumed? And presumably there must be another clutch of some sort to engage the generator?

It doesn't need higher revs to charge. First of all it doesn't always charge when you hit charge button. It charges whenever it can at a given point in time at given driving conditions (throttle position, drive rpm, drive load, power requirement.....) Generally when all power produced by ICE is needed and/or used by PHEV it doesn't charge but as soon as conditions change (such as load/power req. goes down, change in throttle position) it starts charging. This is also the answer to your question in the second paragraph.
it is not that hard to provide a flat torque curve in certain RPM range by design. ICE in PHEV is specifically design to provide a flat torque curve in certain RPM range because most of the time it will either run as a generator or run at high speeds during freeway runs.

 

[maddogsetc]

It doesn't need higher revs to charge. First of all it doesn't always charge when you hit charge button. It charges whenever it can at a given point in time at given driving conditions (throttle position, drive rpm, drive load, power requirement.....) Generally when all power produced by ICE is needed and/or used by PHEV it doesn't charge but as soon as conditions change (such as load/power req. goes down, change in throttle position) it starts charging. This is also the answer to your question in the second paragraph.

That's interesting and, having never used Charge myself, goes some way towards answering my question. However, I still can't understand, if there are times when the ICE has spare capacity to run Charge mode, why would Mitsubishi have not made this the default option, unless of course it does use more petrol? Perhaps it does use more but the penalty is just not as great as most of us had assumed (which is great news if true).

Look forward to hearing the results of your tests Maby

Hats off to Mitsubishi, the more that you think about it, there's lots of clever engineering gone into this car. Just a shame the MMCS is such a weak link.

 

[maby]

It doesn't need higher revs to charge. First of all it doesn't always charge when you hit charge button. It charges whenever it can at a given point in time at given driving conditions (throttle position, drive rpm, drive load, power requirement.....) Generally when all power produced by ICE is needed and/or used by PHEV it doesn't charge but as soon as conditions change (such as load/power req. goes down, change in throttle position) it starts charging. This is also the answer to your question in the second paragraph.

That's interesting and, having never used Charge myself, goes some way towards answering my question. However, I still can't understand, if there are times when the ICE has spare capacity to run Charge mode, why would Mitsubishi have not made this the default option, unless of course it does use more petrol? Perhaps it does use more but the penalty is just not as great as most of us had assumed (which is great news if true).

Look forward to hearing the results of your tests Maby

Hats off to Mitsubishi, the more that you think about it, there's lots of clever engineering gone into this car. Just a shame the MMCS is such a weak link.

I'm afraid you'll have to wait another couple of weeks before I have any results - the car is at the dealers waiting to be collected, but they informed us too late for us to be able to get the payment to them for today, so it will stay there till next Tuesday which is the next convenient day to collect it! We probably could have picked it up tomorrow, but didn't want to miss out on sailing, so the Landcruiser got another run!

 

[JFIN]

It doesn't need higher revs to charge. First of all it doesn't always charge when you hit charge button. It charges whenever it can at a given point in time at given driving conditions (throttle position, drive rpm, drive load, power requirement.....) Generally when all power produced by ICE is needed and/or used by PHEV it doesn't charge but as soon as conditions change (such as load/power req. goes down, change in throttle position) it starts charging. This is also the answer to your question in the second paragraph.

That's interesting and, having never used Charge myself, goes some way towards answering my question. However, I still can't understand, if there are times when the ICE has spare capacity to run Charge mode, why would Mitsubishi have not made this the default option, unless of course it does use more petrol? Perhaps it does use more but the penalty is just not as great as most of us had assumed (which is great news if true).

Look forward to hearing the results of your tests Maby

Hats off to Mitsubishi, the more that you think about it, there's lots of clever engineering gone into this car. Just a shame the MMCS is such a weak link.

I'm afraid you'll have to wait another couple of weeks before I have any results - the car is at the dealers waiting to be collected, but they informed us too late for us to be able to get the payment to them for today, so it will stay there till next Tuesday which is the next convenient day to collect it! We probably could have picked it up tomorrow, but didn't want to miss out on sailing, so the Landcruiser got another run!

Looking forward to your findings Maby

 

[ian4x4]

As I understand it, the engine just engages via its fixed gearing to the wheels and the electric motors just add or take power to and from the battery. This get over the problem of the engine being stuck in (lowish top) single gear with not much torque for the size of car. I am sure the programming takes care of keeping the battery topped up enough to save you from any embarrassing slow climbs up long slopes.

If your battery runs down you are restricted to the power that your petrol engine can produce, if it is too small things can get slow, read the BMW i3 forum, if you want examples. (only 37hp)

The only conclusion I can draw is that if you expect to climb a mountain, stick it charge long before you get there.

 

[user 417]

Sorry to disaggree with others here but I find Charge useful quite often. If you are on a section of motorway and exceeding 74mph, heaven forbid, then you might as well capture some of the excess power generated. Without the charge button depressed all you do is use petrol and direct drive, with the charge button depressed you get the above and when on a lighter load, foot off for slowing etc, you generate power into the battery. From experience the "extra" fuel consumption by charging whilst "petrol" driving in negligible.

Are you completely sure about that? I haven't tried it myself at that sort of speed, but when driving at 60-70ish there definitely is charge going into the battery as well as power to the wheels, that's if you believe the display on the dash. So if you ease off a bit such as when decelerating you will get charge from any excess power.

I'll try it myself tomorrow.