Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?

[anko]

About regeneration... Too much paddling may not be the most efficient way of driving.

True. As long as running B0 does not translate into using brake pads more / more often.

From what I've seem braking always implies some kind of regeneration, and hard braking seems to have the same effect of B5.

From what I have seen (through tools), braking hard in B0 regenerates less power / energy than hard braking in B5 can / will achieve. As a consequence, when braking hard in B0 you will depend more on brake pads to achieve the same amount of deceleration. So, with a driving style that involves braking hard, B5 should be more energy efficient than B0. But (in theory?) also more damaging to the battery.

 

[HHL]

About regeneration... Too much paddling may not be the most efficient way of driving.

True. As long as running B0 does not translate into using brake pads more / more often.

From what I've seem braking always implies some kind of regeneration, and hard braking seems to have the same effect of B5.

From what I have seen (through tools), braking hard in B0 regenerates less power / energy than hard braking in B5 can / will achieve. As a consequence, when braking hard in B0 you will depend more on brake pads to achieve the same amount of deceleration. So, with a driving style that involves braking hard, B5 should be more energy efficient than B0. But (in theory?) also more damaging to the battery.

What makes you suspect that maximum regeneration is hard on the battery?
I know that it can push in 30kW (possibly more) going downhill and for short periods when braking, but I would have thought the battery should well cope with it as it can also deliver 60kW (200A)
I have got into a habit of just flicking the gear stick down twice the first time I have to brake and leave it in B5 (never use the paddles any more). I don't think it is a lot more efficient, I just like driving that way but may reconsider if there is a good reason not to do it.

 

[anko]

[What makes you suspect that maximum regeneration is hard on the battery?

The fact that Mitsu says AC charging has less impact on battery live than DC charging does. I do understand that partially this has to do with the fact that battery management is bypassed, but high power regen may very well do the same. B5 regen can approach DC charger levels.

 

[HHL]

[What makes you suspect that maximum regeneration is hard on the battery?

The fact that Mitsu says AC charging has less impact on battery live than DC charging does. I do understand that partially this has to do with the fact that battery management is bypassed, but high power regen may very well do the same. B5 regen can approach DC charger levels.

I think B5 regeneration can in fact far exceed what a DC charger will do. It does taper off though as the battery charges.
I noticed too when charging using the engine in stationary mode, it will no exceed 10kW. What is the maximum input from a DC charger?

 

[elm70]

I think B5 regeneration can in fact far exceed what a DC charger will do. It does taper off though as the battery charges.
I noticed too when charging using the engine in stationary mode, it will no exceed 10kW. What is the maximum input from a DC charger?

Using the CHAdeMO charging standard, the Outlander plug-in hybrid can charge to 80% in 30 minutes

So CHAdeMo should charge the up to 15kw based on the official info above

The regeneration brake on my EvBatMon does report a peak of 25kw now ... but I think I have even seen more in the past (almost 30kw if I recall right)

I already moved to B0 ... only bad thing is that was cool to drive without using the brake pedal ... but when I was using B5 at the end I was all time switching from B0 to B5 and vice versa ... since in many traffic condition is preferable to be on B0

 

[elm70]

About the additional battery pack ..

I see that price of LG 2200mAh 18650 cells, new and in the package of 10S with BMU, for a lot of 10 (200cells) cost only 250 USD (1.25USD for cell) ... that make 250USD for 1.5kwh battery including 10BMU ... this could be easily converted into a 80S pack (1.2kwh) (with 2 package left over)

This means ... a 15kwh battery with these cells cost just 2500usd .. or an extension pack for 1.2kw (+10% range) .. just 250USD

Question is how is the life of these LG 18650 ... which are apparently designed for the currently very popular hoverboards

Price is so far only a special offer in US .. not sure in Europe there is anything available for that price ... import cost from US will make the price to jump quite much ... I guess between +30% to +60%

Anyhow .. the trend on battery price is looking promising ... still ... it does requires some expert or very brave personal for add a pack or replace the current one.

 

[Grigou]

I think B5 regeneration can in fact far exceed what a DC charger will do. It does taper off though as the battery charges.
I noticed too when charging using the engine in stationary mode, it will no exceed 10kW. What is the maximum input from a DC charger?

Using the CHAdeMO charging standard, the Outlander plug-in hybrid can charge to 80% in 30 minutes

So CHAdeMo should charge the up to 15kw based on the official info above

The regeneration brake on my EvBatMon does report a peak of 25kw now ... but I think I have even seen more in the past (almost 30kw if I recall right)

....

I've seen 45 kW occasionally on the dashboard, driving downhill in the Alps.
I see much more frequently 30 kW. But it never lasts for a very long time. After 10 km or so in a long downhill the regenerative braking can't feed more than 10 kW in B5, due to some internal protections I presume. Same behaviour if the battery is very cold when starting : it must heat during the first km / miles to be able to accept more than 5 kw of regen or so. These 5 kw help this heating of course.

Max current DC for Chademo : 50 A (so yes, it's a little more than 15 kW when charging).

 

[GreyBigFoot]

I did check the strange behaviour that range increase after some hours of car off without charge

I left my car after 11km drive and 10min preheating and EvBatMon reported 75soc
Back in the car after 8h and evbatmon reported 80soc, range did increase from 25 to 28 if I recall right

Evbatmon reported that total voltage did increased from 318 to 322v, max and min cell voltage was equal before and 0.01v difference after 8h rest... Finally battery temperature was 1deg lower after 8h of rest even if outside temperature was higher: 16deg vs 15deg

It sounds to me that my battery pack did develop some higer IR compared to new

Just seen that with mine the other day (that's a 10 months / 4000kms MY2016).

Left it at 66%. 9h later, was showing 70% and of course increase in range.

Had done 25kms in the morning well under 20ºC before I left it in the garage during all day at a cosy 21ºC-25ºC... Could it be this?

 

[elm70]

Just seen that with mine the other day (that's a 10 months / 4000kms MY2016).

Left it at 66%. 9h later, was showing 70% and of course increase in range.

Had done 25kms in the morning well under 20ºC before I left it in the garage during all day at a cosy 21ºC-25ºC... Could it be this?

10months and 4000km .. your car is practically new ... unless you have left your car sitting almost all the time with battery fully charged.

So ... possibly the range increase and rise in voltage and SOC is something else.

I consistently see this increase of range with 8h rest and after 10/12km drive from fully charged ... but ... I'm also noticing that when I leave my car with low EV range (less then 15km range left) ... normally on the next restart range is even less.

I will check next time with EvBatMon what is the declared IR of my battery ... but for what I have seen in the past .. data are jumping up and down (+/- 80%) every time ... so I'm not sure how reliable is this reading from EvBatMon

The best way to see IR, is to notice battery drop and bounce back after some heavy usage .. like stop ... accelerate using 50kw power .. and then stop ...using EvBatMan logging for read power out and voltage

 

[AutoE]

Far worse degradation in Israel. I mentioned that our late-2014 is showing a fully-charged range of 20-24km to an associate who I recommended the PHEV to and he dropped by with this EVBATMON app and an OBD. Battery is between 75-76% capacity after 30 months! I'm wondering if its the heat here. Appreciate any thoughts. I guess I'm going to lose the PHEV to service for a couple days.

 

[elm70]

Definitely if car is left fully charged and exposed to high temperature (above 35/40 cabin temperature) .. possibly it is the worst condition for battery degradation

20/24km range with 75% capacity ... sound to me this is range with AC on ... my PHEV drop 10km in the range when I click AC .. but I guess in Israel in most of the year it is not an option to avoid to turn on AC

So question is : is the car left outside in the sun with battery fully charged (always connected to the charging cable) ?

I would expect that if car is kept in a "fresh" garage , and not left fully charged longer then needed ... only the heat during the travel should not impact much on battery life

PS: Tesla, possibly has a more advanced cooling system for the battery .. but this also consume lot of battery energy for activate AC while car is left unused, not really an option with a "small" 12kwh battery pack

 

[HHL]

The PHEV battery pack also has a fan and aircon evaporator inside (hence it is not straightforward to remove), I don't know if it activates when the car is not in use though.

 

[jaapv]

Over three years and 85.000 km, daily charging (often twice a day) never Chademo.
The battery lost 5 Ah, down to 32 Ah from 37 Ah. My dealer tells me that is fairly normal.
I do not notice a significant drop in range.

 

[elm70]

My EvBatMon report 35.8Ah .. with over 126.000km and 3.5y old car .. so I can't complain apparently

Range ... I can't see more then 41km on the dash .. and I doubt I can make more then 40km even driving relative slow

With only 32Ah ... I bet your range can't be more then 37km .. definitely 40km should be no more visible on the dash

 

[jaapv]

On the dash, like in the beginning: mostly 43 km, 38 when I have really been pushing it. The real range yesterday and today was close to 50 km. Easy for me to tell, as my daily commute is exactly 25+25 km, in winter I have to recharge at work, in summer I mostly make it to the last 2 km return.

 

[elm70]

Interesting ...

I'm wondering if the EvBatMan does report "strange" numbers .. or if is my right foot too heavy

I have seen 52km range .. only after disconnect the battery for reset the "forced ICE on until refuel" .. but it did sink to below 40km range after a couple of km ...

I'm hardly doing more then 30km a day .. and if I do .. I do into multiple trips and I may recharge in the middle of the day .. on long trip .. I take motorway 2km from my start .. and after few km I press charge or recharge .. so ... is mainly my feeling that 40km is more or less what my car can do in EV mode .. and is very surprising that yours with almost 10% less battery can do more

I mean ... I don't doubt your words .. just I'm confused on the EvBatMon data and the possible driving style and driving path

At the end in summer I use AC .. and in winter pre-heat .. also now I like to pre-heat my car instead to enter in a car that is just 10deg cabing temp ... so .. ideal max range is hard to manage .. still I'm surprise this PHEV can do so much for some owners

PS: My PHEV apparently does never charge 100% the battery .. I will need to double check what EvBatMon report after my classic full night charging ... maybe it does explain why I get a relative poor range

 

[jaapv]

I drive 7 km suburban, 12 km 80 km provincial road, 4km motorway, 2 km suburban.

 

[elm70]

Make 50km with such a path is "impressive" ... I can guess that you don't drive very fast on the 4km motorway ... possibly just up to 100km/h .. but still I bet my PHEV that has a better battery condition it is for sure not capable to do the same in EV mode.

4km at 120km/h that is a "normal" speed on motorway .. is equivalent then 8 or even 10km done at 60km/h

My only "guess" is that max charge and min discharge level are a bit different for each PHEV ... maybe with a software update of my PHEV maybe they can squeeze out more range for my battery . Else ... I need to reprogram my right foot :mrgreen:

Anyhow .. luckily for my usage I just need 30km of range a day .. and so far .. no issue on doing this with AC and/or double pre-heat in winter and summer

 

[GreyBigFoot]

Lost about 0.7Ah in the first two months/4500kms (mine is an ex-demo car, hence the low mileage).

Didn't noticed any change in range also. Daily charging doing the same daily commute of a 50kms (about 40% on motorway) round-trip.

Full charge is normally above 100% (105-107%).

Dash reports about 50kms of EV range in the morning, doing about 45-48kms on electricity (which I think is normal).

The weather is hot in this part of the globe (Western Europe).

Not really sure how that Total Battery Capacity is measured.

 

[anko]

I know (quite well, I might add) where EvBatMon gets its Ah number from. It gets it straight from the BMU. And in my case, it has never been off compared to dealer readouts.

My battery sits at 29.5 Ah. And yet, I still manage 45 km (real km, not just predicted range) every now and then. With the current temperatures, I can achieve my daily commute of 2 x 40.5 km on electricity without to much trouble, unless I have a very strong head wind. This does surprise me, I must say.

Maybe, the low SOC buffer is related to the currently available capacity, not the original capacity.