Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold

[phevnor]

Just keep it off.
And use one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcar+heater.TRS0&_nkw=car+heater&_sacat=0

why not?
:lol:

You will know why not the same moment as you plug it in. :shock:

 

[Trex]

For sure you knew about these thing. But some others may not ;-)

Also, pulling the fuel pump fuse does not cause A/C type warnings on the dash.

I wrote ACC not A/C. I am pretty sure that was a one of the error messages ie ACC service required. :roll:

Was not in response to anything you wrote. I just meant to say: when you pull the fuel pump fuse, the A/C ECU does not get into distress when the ICE doesn't fire up. So, hopefully it doesn't get into distress either when the 'start engine' message is not obeyed (because it got killed) :mrgreen:

No problem.

But I do want to bring in this post from March 2015 in this topic I started http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1304&start=20

With the heater, it is different. You cannot get the same behaviour without a button or mode.

That being said, as far as I can understand it is the AirCon ECU (yes, the little panel that you use to control your AirCon + the electronics inside the panel) that tells the engine to start under specific circumstances (different sensors + temp setting). All we need is reprogramming of that little ECU so it doesn't tell the engine to start anymore. If only this was analog stuff, we could most probably cut a single wire and be done with it. No impact on engine, generator, fuel sensors, no reduced power when you need it. And if you do want to use the engine for heating, simply hit Charge mode.

Unfortunately, this signal will (most likely) go via CANBUS. Don't want to cut CANBUS wires :evil: .

anko now we can get down to the nitty gritty.

Like I wrote in post 2 of this thread:" 1. A defined goal ie EV only mode."

I should have said 1. A defined goal ie EV only mode or what ever we decide we want to improve.

Let us assume we try to fix this problem first. ie stop the petrol motor starting in the colder climates when the Phev has a electric heater. It is probably the easier of our wanted improvements and we have to start somewhere. MOT, EU and ADR might not even care. :lol:

So the first thing we can do is bring in the diagram you gave me that I posted in the sticky



Now underneath I wrote:

"For people in cold climates (I have a electric heater and for me in northern NSW Australia I have never had the engine start in winter when heating) I think it says underneath this image that about 10 C or more difference between the setting of the climate control and temp of the interior starts the petrol motor.

Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:

It also says max output of electric heater is 4.25kw."

I was only joking when I said : "Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:"
and most certainly yes that control signal will be on the Canbus .

So how do you stop this signal getting to the petrol motor. I would say by "fooling" the data packet at the address of the module that controls the heater control assembly which decides to start the petrol motor. Which on our Canbus schematic would be the A/C module on the SUB CAN-C network.

How do we find that address and data packet. By sniffing or listening to the Canbus when the actual event occurs ie petrol motor starting from cold temps.

Anyone else with any ideas on this improvement?

Regards Trex.

Its funny reading old posts as I have since seen the petrol motor start last year by increasing the temp dial too quickly on purpose to find out for myself how long the engine runs when you decrease it.

But I digress. Now see where I say:

I was only joking when I said : "Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:"
and most certainly yes that control signal will be on the Canbus .

So how do you stop this signal getting to the petrol motor. I would say by "fooling" the data packet at the address of the module that controls the heater control assembly which decides to start the petrol motor. Which on our Canbus schematic would be the A/C module on the SUB CAN-C network.

How do we find that address and data packet. By sniffing or listening to the Canbus when the actual event occurs ie petrol motor starting from cold temps.

As far as I know I wrote this before you went onto sniffing or listening to the Canbus where you got addresses for yourself and EVBatmon etc.
But when you say:

I have identified and interpreted lot's of messages going back and forth on the bus, but have not yet been able to identify anything as coming from the A/C. Will not be easy.

Have you tried "identified and interpreted lot's of messages" or looking for the address when FORCING the petrol motor to start by increasing the temp dial above the threshold of the electric heater? Ie looking for something different that just happened on the Canbus traffic.

I hope you know what I mean.

Edit. I now think this is a silly question probably. Forget I asked. :lol:

I should have listened to myself when I talk about disconnecting inputs and outputs in the previous posts in this topic. Bloody error messages etc. :lol:

 

[phevnor]

This evening, I put a potmeter in parallell to the internal termal sensor.

The wire 13 & 17 in the plug, were the right ones. I checked with a resistans of 600Ohm between the pins.
Hooked into the wires and took the wire to the spare switch on left-top on dash.
Behind that spare blind-switch, a plug contacted. What is normaly that switch placed there for? (EDIT: Found out, it is height regulation main light)
Outside -3 Centigrades

Started car, with the potmeter set to a recistance approx were it would give the signal for 20C inside.
Heat set to 15,5C. The ICE did not start. When i turned the potmeter so car read colder more atual temp, the ICE started.
Took the car for a spin, and could switch on and of the OCE by tuning the potmeter.
But, I could not get the electric heat only to be engaged. After a few short minutes the ICE was of, and I saw that the electric heat kept the heather warm.

This was only a short drive, so to early to conclude if it made any change.
But it seems like it did not engage the electric heating onl, the ICE started simultanious with powermeter in car showd electric heater engaged.
It can be that the potmeter i have is a 50k, and small turn makes to big change. I will se if I find a 5K instead, that can be turned more without makeing to rapid of big reading of the cabin temp.

What switch/function is normally on the spare position? Behind is the plug connected to the "blindswitch"

 

[Steepndeep]

Hi

How do you remove the different panels on the dashboard? Normally you pry them out by using the right tool on the right places but which tool and where??? Any tips?

 

[phevnor]

I have these plastic tools, bought on eBay:

In the mid panel, started on top right corner. Then followed up in parallel bottom/top, until last and a bit harder then the rest pulles it free on top left side.
The left panel came very easliy off, started on top left corner and down. Then it more or less fell off.
Before Iput it back in place, i sprayed some silicon (Simular as for peventing rubber seal freeze on door in winter), to make it easy to put back on, and also prevent any squeaking.

-5 outside now, and shall take a it out for a drive and see how it behave.

 

[phevnor]

Some calculation and thinking on this paralell fix.

I know that when it is approx +5 outside, and car started with setting 15,5, no ICE start.
Lokking at the caracteristic curves for internal temp senor and setting for the paralell, the best or a good start could be setting the potmeter to 25KOhm.
This fools the control to believe that internal temp is somewere round 10C, when actually it is 0.
This should make the ICE not run to make heat, but perhaps not prevent to start for teh short preheat for cold engine/ambient temp. Engine run idle approx 1 min, as also the Vtech-box does with their solution.

 

[phevnor]

Out driving, -2C.
Set the potmeter to approx 25kOhm.
Heater off, and set to 15.5C. Main battery almost full.

-Started car
-ECO on
-Heater on => ICE Started

After approx 2 km ICE stopped. Increased setpoint to 20C, ICE stated again.
Looked at ECT, engine coolant temp, and it seem like ICE is running until it get the ECT to 60C.

Putting a potmeter in parallell still make the heater trying to compensate for the difference between setpoint and reading temperature.
The idea from beginning in this thread, to make it possible to swith between original setup, and a fixed reading could perhaps be a better solution.
By that the heater can be used as a old type heather, lets say set it to always read 20, and when set to 21 in heater, the control might just request a small amount of energy, bellow the setpoint askin for ICE to start.
More test hav to be done, just made two trips so far.

 

[anko]

You say you looked at ECT. Are you using an OBD adapter for it? And Torque or the like?

If so, I may be able to set you up with the parameters you would need to extract heater fluid temp, interior temp (what you are trying to manipulate), heater power and a lot more.... Even the engine start request form the A/C ECU is available. But as a Q&A OBD parameter. Not as a CANBUS frame.

I don't think the 60 deg C is a specific value. The ECT needs to be 70 deg C before the valve opens and the coolant is used to warm the vehicle. IMHO, two factors control when the engine stops (before the coolant reaches 70 deg C):
- The engine will run sufficiently long to build up oil pressure and distribute oil and such. In summer time at least 30 seconds but on cold days this can be much longer.
- The electric heater can change parameters to a point where the brain decides it does not need the ICE to assist after all.

When both conditions are met, the ICE will stop before actually warming the car. Total waste of fuel and an unnecessary cold start.

 

[anko]

My main concern is this:

It seems that low interior temperature in comparison to requested temperature is one factor that may cause the ICE to start. By manipulating the interior temperature, you could get into a scenario where the ICE will not start when you start the heater at 15,5 deg C and gradually ramp up. But more and more, I believe that the temperature of the heater fluid also plays a role when the requested temperature is around 19 deg C or so.

This would mean that your solution would make it possible to use the heater in a very controlled fashion, without ICE startups. But it will not allow us to leave the heater on at 20 deg C all the time, without ICE startup. This is also about what I experience with the PHEVbox from Vtech tuning. I so much hope you will prove me wrong.

 

[anko]

..., but perhaps not prevent to start for teh short preheat for cold engine/ambient temp. Engine run idle approx 1 min, as also the Vtech-box does with their solution.

Are you saying, even with the heater off, the ICE will run for a short while in cold weather? Others have made similar claims, but I am pretty convinced mine doesn't do that.

 

[jaapv]

This should make the ICE not run to make heat, but perhaps not prevent to start for teh short preheat for cold engine/ambient temp.

My dealer assures me, after asking the question off Mitsubishi at a workshop, that the ICE is never started up for reason of warming up from cold.

 

[elm70]

Lot of work again for hack the 'retarded' firmware from Mitsubishi

Would be so simple to add on MMCS the delta temperature manually adjustable that in eco mode prevent the ICE to start only for car heating
Even more simple to avoud to start ICE when in ECO mode together with power limited to 60kw

But, customer care and attention is zero from Japan

I'm wondering if the magic EV button on 2017 fix the ICE issue, or retarded design have been still left in the latest firmware too

Ps: If people invest time and energy on this hacking, it really means that the firmware design has caused very annoying limitations

 

[phevnor]

Lot of work again for hack the 'retarded' firmware from Mitsubishi
Would be so simple to add on MMCS the delta temperature manually adjustable that in eco mode prevent the ICE to start only for car heating
Even more simple to avoud to start ICE when in ECO mode together with power limited to 60kw
But, customer care and attention is zero from Japan
I'm wondering if the magic EV button on 2017 fix the ICE issue, or retarded design have been still left in the latest firmware too
Ps: If people invest time and energy on this hacking, it really means that the firmware design has caused very annoying limitations

Owned a Nissan Leaf as pure EV for two years, and from that disapointed in how Mitsubishi have solved or made the different features, Somehow they have managed to make a REAL hybrid, a dash of iCE and dash of EV.The consumer/customer, which happen to be me and a few others, would be even more satisfied if they were offered a pure EV untill battery level reached the energy level were everybody understand it is the time to make electric energy from the iCE,
How hard can be?

 

[Trex]

Lot of work again for hack the 'retarded' firmware from Mitsubishi

Would be so simple to add on MMCS the delta temperature manually adjustable that in eco mode prevent the ICE to start only for car heating
Even more simple to avoud to start ICE when in ECO mode together with power limited to 60kw

But, customer care and attention is zero from Japan

I'm wondering if the magic EV button on 2017 fix the ICE issue, or retarded design have been still left in the latest firmware too

Ps: If people invest time and energy on this hacking, it really means that the firmware design has caused very annoying limitations

Just because a troll calls it "retarded" does not make it true.

We have a some people here complaining about this effect which has never worried me in the time I have seen this for myself in the snow last year as I preheated the cabin with that wonderful app on my phone.

And then you can also turn down the temp on the HVAC and shut down the petrol motor reasonable quickly if you forget or are in a hurry.

Yea. A real big "retarded" design problem. :roll:

Oops I fed the troll. :lol:

 

[maby]

Lot of work again for hack the 'retarded' firmware from Mitsubishi
Would be so simple to add on MMCS the delta temperature manually adjustable that in eco mode prevent the ICE to start only for car heating
Even more simple to avoud to start ICE when in ECO mode together with power limited to 60kw
But, customer care and attention is zero from Japan
I'm wondering if the magic EV button on 2017 fix the ICE issue, or retarded design have been still left in the latest firmware too
Ps: If people invest time and energy on this hacking, it really means that the firmware design has caused very annoying limitations

Owned a Nissan Leaf as pure EV for two years, and from that disapointed in how Mitsubishi have solved or made the different features, Somehow they have managed to make a REAL hybrid, a dash of iCE and dash of EV.The consumer/customer, which happen to be me and a few others, would be even more satisfied if they were offered a pure EV untill battery level reached the energy level were everybody understand it is the time to make electric energy from the iCE,
How hard can be?

Even better would have been to make it driver selectable - which would be no harder. I bought the PHEV expecting something more like a 4WD estate Prius - I would prefer it to be "more hybrid" - they could easily have included a switch on the MMCS to allow the driver to select between multiple modes including the "EV until the battery is flat" mode.

 

[anko]

Should have, would have, could have ....
Retarded design ...

Can this thread be about what we can / cannot do about it ourselves? As we know by now, Mitsubishi is not going to change it.

 

[elm70]

Lot of work again for hack the 'retarded' firmware from Mitsubishi

Would be so simple to add on MMCS the delta temperature manually adjustable that in eco mode prevent the ICE to start only for car heating
Even more simple to avoud to start ICE when in ECO mode together with power limited to 60kw

But, customer care and attention is zero from Japan

I'm wondering if the magic EV button on 2017 fix the ICE issue, or retarded design have been still left in the latest firmware too

Ps: If people invest time and energy on this hacking, it really means that the firmware design has caused very annoying limitations

Just because a troll calls it "retarded" does not make it true.

We have a some people here complaining about this effect which has never worried me in the time I have seen this for myself in the snow last year as I preheated the cabin with that wonderful app on my phone.

And then you can also turn down the temp on the HVAC and shut down the petrol motor reasonable quickly if you forget or are in a hurry.

Yea. A real big "retarded" design problem. :roll:

Oops I fed the troll. :lol:

Definition about retarded design: "Make a heating system designed for African and Australian weather"

PS: Trex, you are a person that has no respect for other that have a different view then your. Instead of attacking me marking as troll, if you have still some sense, just ignore my posts.

For me, it is point less to discuss with you since, it is self evident from your posts that: "Risus abundat in ore stultorum"

 

[elm70]

Should have, would have, could have ....
Retarded design ...

Can this thread be about what we can / cannot do about it ourselves? As we know by now, Mitsubishi is not going to change it.

You are right ... but ... seeing every few weeks people complain here over and over about the ICE management and heating system ... I could not resist .. since for somebody still what done by Mitsubishi was a "work of art"

Back to on topic ...

I found the idea and approach from "phevnor" .. outstanding

It is looking a simple and quite effective solution.

Only issue ... is that I don't know if I have the "guts" for open by PHEV console like "phevnor" did

Anyhow, potentially is looking quite easy to place a variable resistance, and possibly make it available from the console .. and tune this in order have a higher temperature reading when needed ... just turn this pot to highest value, and this "hack" is disabled ... so a nice approach

What I never understood from the vtech solution is: How does his "workaround" does work in summer time or mild weather ? ... how can the car set up properly the configured temperature from MMCS if the "workaround" always make the car to believe that inside temperature is 13deg (or whatever has been coded or hard coded) ?

Ideally the solution should be a proper "firmware update" ... even better if by miracle Mitsubishi designed a "CAM code" for set the delta temperate of the ECO mode that prevent ICE start
A more serious company would have provided a patch for their customer .. but Mitsubishi does no prove here to be a serious company

PS: Still I have not got any report that this issue has been solved on PHEV 17 model ... I will be interested to know if at least Mitsubishi use negative feedback for improve future model ... about negative feedback ... Tesla CEO reported that "He love to get Negative Feedback" ... smart people know that positive feedback is quite useless ... negative feedback is the one that help for improve a product

 

[anko]

PS: Trex, you are a person that has no respect for other that have a different view then your. Instead of attacking me marking as troll, if you have still some sense, just ignore my posts.

In Trex' defense: You may not be aware of it, but you make it very hard for some people to ignore your posts. They leave no room whatsoever for people to be content with their purchases ... And when people do not agree with you, or present a more nuanced opinion, they are labeled fanboys.

 

[anko]

What I never understood from the vtech solution is: How does his "workaround" does work in summer time or mild weather ? ... how can the car set up properly the configured temperature from MMCS if the "workaround" always make the car to believe that inside temperature is 13deg (or whatever has been coded or hard coded) ?

That is not what it does. It makes the car believe it is 13 deg C when the actual reading is less then 13 deg C. When it is warmer, the reading is no longer affected.

A more serious company would have provided a patch for their customer .. but Mitsubishi does no prove here to be a serious company

PS: Still I have not got any report that this issue has been solved on PHEV 17 model ... I will be interested to know if at least Mitsubishi use negative feedback for improve future model ... about negative feedback ... Tesla CEO reported that "He love to get Negative Feedback" ... smart people know that positive feedback is quite useless ... negative feedback is the one that help for improve a product

And here you go again .... This is not what I would call 'back on topic'. You have proven you can't help yourself :?