anko
Well-known member
What makes you think you save power this way? The fact that the break lights are off?greendwarf said:
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greendwarf
Well-known member
welljock said:
Exactly - BTW as I also routinely put the handbrake on when stopped (can't change the habit after 50 years of motoring and its safer than pushing on the footbrake) N turns off the drive - so saves energy. Starting from Neutral also brings in to play the hill start assist.
anko
Well-known member
Yes, you said something like this before. So again, please let us know why you think it saves energy.greendwarf said:
anko said:
I think this refers to the fact that when stationary in D you have to keep your foot on the brake or the car will move forward slowly. This implies that some energy is being used because the motors are under load.
Although it might not be much this will be using some power and so dropping out of D would save that energy.
anko
Well-known member
I think at best it implies that some energy is being used when you start to lift the break pedal or when you have not put sufficient pressure on the break pedal.kentphev said:
Watch the energy flow graphics. With the break pedal firmly pressed, no energy flow is shown. When you lift the break pedal, first you see an energy flow from battery to wheels is shown and only then the car starts moving.
As a matter of fact, the 'creepy feeling' was programmed into the PHEV on purpose, to give it an 'auto' feel. Wouldn't be to difficult to program this effect such that it would only occur when you do not press the break pedal fully / hard enough.
anko said:
In my experience the car feels like it's pushing the whole time rather than only as you start to lift. In addition if you put the hand brake in D you feel the car squat on the rear suspension just as a normal car would if you try to pull away with the hand brake on..
You can't take the info gauges as being totally accurate either. They are just software generated and you can't know what algorithm or filtering is being done. For example, the heated seats appear not to consume any power according to that display!
anko
Well-known member
The roof of my house pushes down on the walls. All the time, with full force. But how many times I have tried, I have never been able to feel it. How can one feel a stationary car push? All pushing force (if there is any) is absorbed by the breaks. So there is nothing left to feel.
Unless you had your legs between that car and a brick wall or so and lifted the pedal a bit. But still the car had to move before you felt it.
Unless you had your legs between that car and a brick wall or so and lifted the pedal a bit. But still the car had to move before you felt it.
greendwarf
Well-known member
Oh dear! When you put the car into N having previously been in drive with the handbrake on, not only does the energy flow stop but the car moves - both of which indicate that EV is being used to try to push the car forward but the brake is stopping it with the wasted energy presumably being turned into heat - haven't any of you ever burnt out a jammed electric motor e.g. power tool 
The effect of gravity is a spurious comparison!
BTW the car uses quite a lot of energy just sitting doing nothing when powered up - I had the ICE fire up when sitting outside a shop waiting for my wife when the battery finally went to "zero" on the dash display.
The effect of gravity is a spurious comparison!
BTW the car uses quite a lot of energy just sitting doing nothing when powered up - I had the ICE fire up when sitting outside a shop waiting for my wife when the battery finally went to "zero" on the dash display.
anko
Well-known member
Yes, if you use the handbreak instead of the footbreak, I am sure it is using energy. But I don't think we were talking about the handbreak here. At least I wasn't when I spoke of 'lifting' and 'pressing firmly'.
) about that comparison?
Just because you say so, or do you care to explain what is spurious (had to look that upgreendwarf said:
) about that comparison?Did a test to prove it to myself today... In N with the hand brake on... Put it in D and you feel the whole car sit back on its rear because the motors are torqued.
Put it in R and the opposite happens.
Back into N and it sits flat.
Electric motors can be 'stalled' providing torque without moving. Not good for brushed motors but I assume modern EVs probably have brushless motors like modern Dyson hovers.
So yes, in D or R you are consuming power while not moving. This consumption is matched by the equal and opposite force applied via the brake (foot or hand)
As I said before it's probably not a huge amount, but depends on how long you sit waiting at traffic lights. Where I live.... Far too long :-(
Put it in R and the opposite happens.
Back into N and it sits flat.
Electric motors can be 'stalled' providing torque without moving. Not good for brushed motors but I assume modern EVs probably have brushless motors like modern Dyson hovers.
So yes, in D or R you are consuming power while not moving. This consumption is matched by the equal and opposite force applied via the brake (foot or hand)
As I said before it's probably not a huge amount, but depends on how long you sit waiting at traffic lights. Where I live.... Far too long :-(
anko
Well-known member
When using the handbrake, yes of course. The car is in Go-mode and you are not applying the breaks. Of course it wants to go then. But with the foot take applied, I bet you you will see different results.
greendwarf
Well-known member
anko said:Just because you say so, or do you care to explain what is spurious (had to look that upgreendwarf said:
Because gravity is not an energy force pressing down rather a pulling force and is not generated by the input of electro mechanical activity. We are getting into serious physics here.
anko said:
Well of course you will.. the handbrake only works on the rear brakes allowing the front wheels to drive - hence the car moving on its shocks.
With your foot on the brake you prevent any movement.
You could be right that when the foot brake is fully depressed it might cut power to the wheels, but I doubt it. The only way to know for sure would be to ask someone at MMC or use a proper meter to measure it. Dont think anyone is seriously that bothered enough to do the latter!
The other thing.. when you're in D just how to you get into N anyway? I've tried all sorts of combinations and can only get to N via R.. which is really not the thing when sitting at traffic lights! I've even scoured the drivers manual and I couldnt find anything. So maybe you are just supposed to sit on the brakes!
kentphev said:
I'm pretty sure that Mitsubishi would expect you to sit on Park.
If you watch the energy management display, it certainly indicates that applying moderate pressure to the foot brake results in cutting power to the motors.
Strange debate. Cant be much energy spent on sitting on the brakes? That is what I do when I drive a manual car for short stops too, dont we all? For longer delays I might put in neutral and use the break to rest my foot, but I dont see the problem or any relevance to MPG. Perhaps turning on P uses more energy, using electricity for blocking the wheels etc.
My journey to work finds me regularly stopped on an upward incline (not particularly steep) at set of traffic lights.
Whilst stopped, I apply firm pressure on the brake pedal so that the dash display shows no energy flow from battery to wheels.
I am not stopped there long enough to warrant using handbrake or Park.
If I attempt to pull away directly from that scenario, the Phev will roll back. I have to release the brake slightly so that energy flow is shown to the wheels, then I can move my foot from brake to throttle without putting the frighteners on any vehicle waiting behind.
I interpret this to mean that no drive energy (at least of any significance) is being used whilst stationery with my foot firmly on the brake.
Whilst stopped, I apply firm pressure on the brake pedal so that the dash display shows no energy flow from battery to wheels.
I am not stopped there long enough to warrant using handbrake or Park.
If I attempt to pull away directly from that scenario, the Phev will roll back. I have to release the brake slightly so that energy flow is shown to the wheels, then I can move my foot from brake to throttle without putting the frighteners on any vehicle waiting behind.
I interpret this to mean that no drive energy (at least of any significance) is being used whilst stationery with my foot firmly on the brake.
gwatpe
Well-known member
kentphev said:
The "N" position is activated just like the markings on the joystick.
I presume this is the same for LHD and RHD vehicles.
On a RHD vehicle, just move the joystick towards the right and hold for a few seconds. "N" will be engaged. Energy flows will stop. Use hand brake or foot brake to hold car position depending on needs for brake lights to be ON.
