Went for a drive in some snow today.

[maby]

.....

I wasn't comparing it, here, to a saloon, it was an SUV, albeit a fast one. But you are right it is a different car. However I used to have a Toyota Hi-Lux, before it was cool to own one, and drive it off road, and it's performance was about the same.

FWIW, past (SUV) vehicles have been.

• 
  Porsche Cayenne Turbo 4.5 Litre, 450 bhp, 2355 kg = 191bhp per tonne
  BMW X3 2.5 litre, 189 bhp, 1740 KG = 108 bhp per tonne (to get any use out of this you needed to have the engine at over 4k rpm.)
  Toyota Hi-lux 2.4D 89 bhp, 1700 = 52 bhp per tonne.

Now I was, as you say, running with a flat battery, I was on my way home from the hills, and had not been able to charge it anywhere, however the spec for phev are 1.8 tonnes and 200 BHP, so it should be at least comparable to my previous BMW. It isn't. I'm not sure what the power output of the petrol engine itself is, but I'd like to find out. There is a dyno day being held locally, so I may get it tested there. It would be nice to see a graph of where the peak power is.

Well, it is a bit unfair to compare it with the Porsche - that has close to twice the power to weight ratio!

Try keeping your battery charge up and see how much difference that makes. If I'm driving any significant distance, I hit Save as soon as I set out and stay in save until I'm ten or twenty miles from my next opportunity to charge. There is certainly an argument that this is less than optimum for fuel consumption and Trex has run tests that seem to indicate that this could be approaching 10% under ideal conditions. Personally, I take the view that the difference between 40mpg and 44mpg is not enough to compensate for having an underpowered car.

 

[onlynik]

Well, it is a bit unfair to compare it with the Porsche - that has close to twice the power to weight ratio!

Try keeping your battery charge up and see how much difference that makes. If I'm driving any significant distance, I hit Save as soon as I set out and stay in save until I'm ten or twenty miles from my next opportunity to charge. There is certainly an argument that this is less than optimum for fuel consumption and Trex has run tests that seem to indicate that this could be approaching 10% under ideal conditions. Personally, I take the view that the difference between 40mpg and 44mpg is not enough to compensate for having an underpowered car.

Thanks, I'll give it a go this weekend as we have a long trip planned.

 

[anko]

I wasn't comparing it, here, to a saloon, it was an SUV, albeit a fast one. But you are right it is a different car. However I used to have a Toyota Hi-Lux, before it was cool to own one, and drive it off road, and it's performance was about the same.

FWIW, past (SUV) vehicles have been.

• 
  Porsche Cayenne Turbo 4.5 Litre, 450 bhp, 2355 kg = 191bhp per tonne
  BMW X3 2.5 litre, 189 bhp, 1740 KG = 108 bhp per tonne (to get any use out of this you needed to have the engine at over 4k rpm.)
  Toyota Hi-lux 2.4D 89 bhp, 1700 = 52 bhp per tonne.

Now I was, as you say, running with a flat battery, I was on my way home from the hills, and had not been able to charge it anywhere, however the spec for phev are 1.8 tonnes and 200 BHP, so it should be at least comparable to my previous BMW. It isn't. I'm not sure what the power output of the petrol engine itself is, but I'd like to find out. There is a dyno day being held locally, so I may get it tested there. It would be nice to see a graph of where the peak power is.

All the info you are looking for is available on this forum. Look at the Technical Discussion section.

From 0 to 60 km/h, available power goes from 0 to 160 bhp pretty much in a straight line. Between 60 and 120 km/h you have a very constant 160 bhp. Speeding up from 120 to 170 km/h power increases from 160 to 204 bhp.

But to be honest, I am curious how much thought has gone into your decision to buy one. I mean, you can't have it both ways can you?

 

[anko]

Try keeping your battery charge up and see how much difference that makes. If I'm driving any significant distance, I hit Save as soon as I set out and stay in save until I'm ten or twenty miles from my next opportunity to charge. There is certainly an argument that this is less than optimum for fuel consumption and Trex has run tests that seem to indicate that this could be approaching 10% under ideal conditions. Personally, I take the view that the difference between 40mpg and 44mpg is not enough to compensate for having an underpowered car.

Thanks, I'll give it a go this weekend as we have a long trip planned.

I have posted many graphs on this same forum, showing that the car had virtually all power that you could expect, based on the specs, even with a battery depleted below the level where normally the engine kicks in to recharge it. These graphs were both from solo driving and while towing a caravan. So, to be honest, I don't expect you will notice any difference. But please, let us know.

 

[maby]

...

I have posted many graphs on this same forum, showing that the car had virtually all power that you could expect, based on the specs, even with a battery depleted below the level where normally the engine kicks in to recharge it. These graphs were both from solo driving and while towing a caravan. So, to be honest, I don't expect you will notice any difference. But please, let us know.

It may well be psychological - I hate to hear the engine revving and naturally back off the accelerator - giving the impression of an underpowered car...

 

[jainkjohn]

according to What Car Group test - BMW X3 vs Audi Q5 vs Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV vs Volvo XC60 the 50-70 time of the PHEV is 5.4 sec. which is better than the Q5 and XC60.
For more details: http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/bmw/x3/bmw-x3-vs-audi-q5-vs-mitsubishi-outlander-vs-volvo-xc60/1322319

 

[greendwarf]

according to What Car Group test - BMW X3 vs Audi Q5 vs Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV vs Volvo XC60 the 50-70 time of the PHEV is 5.4 sec. which is better than the Q5 and XC60.
For more details: http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/bmw/x3/bmw-x3-vs-audi-q5-vs-mitsubishi-outlander-vs-volvo-xc60/1322319

Rather puts the lie to those who complain it is too slow but I don't know where they get 3 years depreciation figures for a car launched in the UK in 2014. :?

 

[jaapv]

Nor does mine lack a CD player or has skinny tyres... And I quite like the seat-folding system in the rear, the most practical I have seen. The interior does not squeak or rattle either.
The comparison appears to be errrmm... superficial.

 

[greendwarf]

Nor does mine lack a CD player or has skinny tyres... And I quite like the seat-folding system in the rear, the most practical I have seen. The interior does not squeak or rattle either.
The comparison appears to be errrmm... superficial.

Don't forget we have a severe obesity problem here in the UK. So the tyres just look thin compared to the oversized Chelsea tractor ones on the other cars, rather than catwalk size zero models. :lol:

 

[elm70]

All the info you are looking for is available on this forum. Look at the Technical Discussion section.

From 0 to 60 km/h, available power goes from 0 to 160 bhp pretty much in a straight line. Between 60 and 120 km/h you have a very constant 160 bhp. Speeding up from 120 to 170 km/h power increases from 160 to 204 bhp.

But to be honest, I am curious how much thought has gone into your decision to buy one. I mean, you can't have it both ways can you?

:?: :?: :?: :?:

The power deliver by this car is very tricky.

Yes, if the battery is low, the available power is qute little.
The petrol engine has only 120hp, that is very little for the size of the car (but I hope it has been designed for last longer)
When battery is low, at the end the car is limited to the 120HP (normally less, since the petrol engine will mainly feed the electric engine, and this may have further power limitation)

Other trick is the absence of gears between petrol engine and wheels ... this means till XX km/h (I guess is around 30km/ if I recall right) .. that means at low speed there is only the twin electric engine to power the car .. that even if each are 60kw power, the battery can't provide anymoe then 70kw, that with power loss means no more then 60kw power that can be consumed by the two electric engine ... this means from zero to 3X km/h there is only 80HP of power available

Other interesting thing at high speed, is that over 165km/h the electric engines (that are also without any gears) goes out of "range", and they should be even disable for avoid that they cause additional resistence ... and only power left is the petrol engine which is at his peak possible RPM ... so at 165km/h power is only 120HP .. and for sure it is decresing already after reaching 120km/h from the peack that is just above 200HP

Yes ... this car is not a tesla with insane electric power .. nor a BMW with good powerfull engines

Performance are relative bad ... and it is wrong to consider it a 200HP car ..

Personally I find it odd .. to have a car limited to 170km/h ... like a Dacia Duster diesel (110HP) .. which possible perform very similar to this Outland PEHV

PS: I read the PEHV tech spech ... and with all this serial/parallel/4wd lock more ... I got a big headache ... and I so far test a PHEV with low battery .. and performance was terrible ... no feeling of power at any speed ... (ps I'm coming from a daily ride on Duster 4x4 Diesel .. and weekend drive on BMW 335i tuned (~400HP) ... on my test, I felt my Duster more prompt to accelerate compared to a PEHV with low battery .. I really hope a well charge battery can make the difference, still I don't believe in miracles .. it will never have the response and power of a BMW SUV with 200HP)

PPS: It would be interested to see a Dyno of this car .. but there is also a nice video on youTube showing a full accelleration of this PEHV .. that is quite self explaining about power ... still this works only for well charged battery on the PEHV

 

[greendwarf]

Yes- lots of discussion elsewhere but the consensus is that you need to keep back some battery to make sure you have the extra power available, when you need it.

 

[anko]

The power deliver by this car is very tricky.

Yes, if the battery is low, the available power is qute little.
The petrol engine has only 120hp, that is very little for the size of the car (but I hope it has been designed for last longer)
When battery is low, at the end the car is limited to the 120HP (normally less, since the petrol engine will mainly feed the electric engine, and this may have further power limitation)

Is this your experience with the second hand Dutch car with 120k km? In that case, best not to buy it!

Only in very extreme situations a 'low' battery should result in limited power. I have posted several graphs on this same forum, showing how performance was not (or hardly) impacted by a low battery condition, both while driving fast solo and while towing a 1500 kg caravan. The only situation where I have experienced reduced power was when my battery level had dropped below 20% (where it normally should not get below 26%, even when the dashboard shows 'empty') after towing my caravan from sea-level to 1100 meters at speeds above 80 km/h.

Other trick is the absence of gears between petrol engine and wheels ... this means till XX km/h (I guess is around 30km/ if I recall right) .. that means at low speed there is only the twin electric engine to power the car .. that even if each are 60kw power, the battery can't provide anymoe then 70kw, that with power loss means no more then 60kw power that can be consumed by the two electric engine ... this means from zero to 3X km/h there is only 80HP of power available

At speeds up to 30 km/h, 80 HP is enough to produce max available torque. Which is much more relevant. The motors would not even be able to handle more power at low speeds, without exceeding max torque specifications.

Other interesting thing at high speed, is that over 165km/h the electric engines (that are also without any gears) goes out of "range", and they should be even disable for avoid that they cause additional resistence ... and only power left is the petrol engine which is at his peak possible RPM ... so at 165km/h power is only 120HP .. and for sure it is decresing already after reaching 120km/h from the peack that is just above 200HP

You got your facts wrong. Between 0 and 60 km/h, max available power goes up lineair from 0 to 120 kW. Between 60 and 120 km/h, it is 120 kW flat. From 120 to 170 km/h it goes up from 120 kW to 149 kW.

Yes- lots of discussion elsewhere but the consensus is that you need to keep back some battery to make sure you have the extra power available, when you need it.

I am pretty sure the consensus is / was that the reason you might want to hang on to some battery charge was comfort, not performance. As in: it will help you to prevent the high revving of the ICE, but it will not affect available power.

 

[elm70]

Is this your experience with the second hand Dutch car with 120k km? In that case, best not to buy it!

Only in very extreme situations a 'low' battery should result in limited power. I have posted several graphs on this same forum, showing how performance was not (or hardly) impacted by a low battery condition, both while driving fast solo and while towing a 1500 kg caravan. The only situation where I have experienced reduced power was when my battery level had dropped below 20% (where it normally should not get below 26%, even when the dashboard shows 'empty') after towing my caravan from sea-level to 1100 meters at speeds above 80 km/h.

Yes, I only experince so far 1 test drive on this "old" Dutch PEHV

Car was having at start even the 12V battey marginally low .. failing to open the trank with the automatic system

After few KM drive the level from zero start to gain 1 or two lines on the clock ... still the battery level was looking empty for me

I have no idea how you could say 20% or any percentge .. if you assume 25% when it show zero on the console ...

Anyhow ... maybe I'm used to cars with Turbo ... which even with limited power do provide a bit of kick and make to feel acceleration more.

I failed to feel any "power" also on a recent test drive on a Mazda RX8 with 192HP ... it was looking "soft" to me ... that's why I did not bouoght it for collecting/fun purpose (BMW 335i is way more fun, with tons of brute power)

About 80HP enough up to 30km/h ... I don't know ... I do feel the difference at this speed on my BMW . before and after tuning .. from 300HP to 400HP ... so ... especially a 4x4 car ... each HP should matter even at low speed.

Anyhow ... maybe it is subjective feeling .. like on Mazda RX8 ... the different noise of absence of noise may do tricks in our brain

PS: About the other topics ... as I said .. I got headacke trying to understand each parallel/serie work of this car ... I only understood that there is no gear (no CVT as well ... unless I missed it on the tech PDF I found on this forum) ... only a wet clutch .. and direct driving both in petrol mode and in electric mode ... unfortunaly ... Tesla without gears can handle well over 200km/h speed on electric power... but on this PEHV electric enginge get useless over 160km/h (and looking of graph it has lot of torque limitation at low speed too, electric motor normally have huge torque at low RPM ... but Mistubishi decided to cut the "edge) .... and only a "slim" 120HP petrol engine is left for push the car .. anyhow ... it is only an issue on German motor way ... else ... over 130/140km/h is forbitten in the rest of europe ... but the time to reach 140km/h matter ... and on this PEHV it is looking as slow as on my dacia

 

[elm70]

I am pretty sure the consensus is / was that the reason you might want to hang on to some battery charge was comfort, not performance. As in: it will help you to prevent the high revving of the ICE, but it will not affect available power.

:?:

If ICE goes high revs ... it means the ICE is not connected to the wheels (or the car is running over 140km/h) .. so it is only an electric generator .. for supply power in conjunction with battery to the two electric motor

Which for the picture that I have seen will never provide more then 35Kw + 35Kw ..that is less then 100HP

 

[anko]

I am pretty sure the consensus is / was that the reason you might want to hang on to some battery charge was comfort, not performance. As in: it will help you to prevent the high revving of the ICE, but it will not affect available power.

:?:

If ICE goes high revs ... it means the ICE is not connected to the wheels (or the car is running over 140km/h) .. so it is only an electric generator .. for supply power in conjunction with battery to the two electric motor

Which for the picture that I have seen will never provide more then 35Kw + 35Kw ..that is less then 100HP

That picture would be wrong. Both E-motors are rated at 60 kW. The generator and the battery can provide 60 kW each. So, in serial hybrid mode max power is rated at 120 kW. But, like I said, only at speeds between approx. 60 km/h and 120 km/h. At lower speeds, producing 120 kW would require more torque than the E-motors are rated for. At higher speeds, the car will always be in parallel hybrid mode.

 

[anko]

After few KM drive the level from zero start to gain 1 or two lines on the clock ... still the battery level was looking empty for me

You mean, it felt empty because performance felt limited? Then either this car is not right or it is not right for you.

I have no idea how you could say 20% or any percentge .. if you assume 25% when it show zero on the console ...

I have a dashboard on my phone (which I built myself) that tells me the exact SOC% (State of Charge) in two decimals in real time.

At lower speeds (roughly below 50 km/h), the battery will be allowed to drain to 26% before the engine is started. At higher speeds, the engine will be started as soon as SOC drops to 31.5%. So, normally, you will not get far below 26%. But if you keep pushing it real hard (like I did towing my caravan uphill at high speed), you may be able to drop SOC lower than that. I've had several 'limited power' warnings on the dashboard, but the only time power was really limited was when SOC dropped below 20%. Unless you are towing or climbing or both, I think you need to be on a circuit to achieve this

Anyhow ... maybe I'm used to cars with Turbo ... which even with limited power do provide a bit of kick and make to feel acceleration more.

I failed to feel any "power" also on a recent test drive on a Mazda RX8 with 192HP ... it was looking "soft" to me ... that's why I did not bouoght it for collecting/fun purpose (BMW 335i is way more fun, with tons of brute power)

About 80HP enough up to 30km/h ... I don't know ... I do feel the difference at this speed on my BMW . before and after tuning .. from 300HP to 400HP ... so ... especially a 4x4 car ... each HP should matter even at low speed.

Anyhow ... maybe it is subjective feeling .. like on Mazda RX8 ... the different noise of absence of noise may do tricks in our brain

PS: About the other topics ... as I said .. I got headacke trying to understand each parallel/serie work of this car ... I only understood that there is no gear (no CVT as well ... unless I missed it on the tech PDF I found on this forum) ... only a wet clutch .. and direct driving both in petrol mode and in electric mode ... unfortunaly ... Tesla without gears can handle well over 200km/h speed on electric power... but on this PEHV electric enginge get useless over 160km/h (and looking of graph it has lot of torque limitation at low speed too, electric motor normally have huge torque at low RPM ... but Mistubishi decided to cut the "edge) .... and only a "slim" 120HP petrol engine is left for push the car .. anyhow ... it is only an issue on German motor way ... else ... over 130/140km/h is forbitten in the rest of europe ... but the time to reach 140km/h matter ... and on this PEHV it is looking as slow as on my dacia

If you plan to keep comparing it to Tesla's and high performance cars, do yourself a favour and don't buy it.

About 80HP enough up to 30km/h ... I don't know ... I do feel the difference at this speed on my BMW . before and after tuning .. from 300HP to 400HP ... so ... especially a 4x4 car ... each HP should matter even at low speed.

I did not say 80 hp was enough at low speed. I said it was enough to saturate the E-motors. So, at low speed the limitation is not caused by the generator capacity of the engine or the battery, but by the torque limitations in combination with gearing of the E-motors. The car would not go quicker if the generator or battery had more capacity.

 

[elm70]

That picture would be wrong. Both E-motors are rated at 60 kW. The generator and the battery can provide 60 kW each. So, in serial hybrid mode max power is rated at 120 kW. But, like I said, only at speeds between approx. 60 km/h and 120 km/h. At lower speeds, producing 120 kW would require more torque than the E-motors are rated for. At higher speeds, the car will always be in parallel hybrid mode.

Thanks

I think this video is self explaining .. showing how the car power the vehicle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbOmtzFj14M

About the 120kw (60+60) .... my bad ....

I did re check the: PHEV Outlander Technical Highlights for MMAL.pdf

And yes, page 19/20/21 are as you said.

In the video the parallel mode happen only above 160km/h ...

Anyhow ... having in mind the video ... I will have my final test of the PEHV here before my final buying decision.

PS: I can still run out from this deal ... but my Lady boss is looking like she want (me) to move into this car ...

 

[anko]

In the video the parallel mode happen only above 160km/h ...

Parallel hybrid mode starts at little over 120 km/h.

Indeed you see the car switch from parallel hybrid to hybrid mode (plus a little charging) at 160 km/h, but this is because the guy goes off the throttle (check power meeter) and not necessarily because the E-motors give up.

Also, the engine should be able to sustain max speed without help from the e-motors / battery.

 

[ultralights]

so, how did it go in the snow and ice?

 

[elm70]

so, how did it go in the snow and ice?

Not a lot of snow this winter

But the PHEV did good the job on snow & ice for me.

Only issue I did notice, is that once or twice the car did not slow down as fast I would have expected (partial ice on the road) ... so got 2 minor "events" without any consequence.

I think that almost 2 tons can be an issue on snow/ice sometime ... at least I need to get more used to it coming from lighters cars.

PS: I'm driving on snow and ice only on flat roads .. still I did not got any mountains experience with my PHEV

PPS: About the power issue I mention above ... I think it can also be due to my permanent usage of ECO mode ... and not every time I press fully the accelerator .. so sometime I believe I just end up before have the "kick off" activated on the gas pedal.

PPPS: About power delivery from battery (actually battery+ICE) ... with same power output independently by the SOC ... it is something that still puzzle me ... Tesla has been reported to have big difference on the 0-100kmh acceleration based on SOC ... did Mitsubishi implement a power limiter from the battery instead of a "current" limiter ? Is the ICE able to compensate the eventual luck of power from battery ? ... At 100SOC .. each battery cells is at 4.1v .. at almost 0 on dash (30SOC real), voltage is down to 3.7v .. that is 10% less voltage .. and assuming same limit in the current is applied ... is 10% less power from battery ... else ... the "controller" need to ask 10% more current for compensate the 10% of less voltage for provide the same power