Fragge said:I drive a Saab 9-5 BioPower on E85 today waiting for my Outlander to be delivered.
There are a few problems with Ethanol (and diesel for that matter) that might explain why the PHEV only runs on petrol.
Starting your engine cold on E85 and diesel is a bit rough, the engine in the Outlander has to start and stop frequently and they want it to be smooth and seamless.
Injectors has a tendency to clog up running on E85 and you are required to run regular petrol every five tanks or so to clean out the injectors (a lot of starting and stopping will make this worse).
When you are running on E85 you fuel consumption goes up about 30% giving you a lot less range and the Outlander only has a 40 liter fuel tank.
The increased consumption also eats up most of financial gain of using E85.
E85 perhaps gives some ecological benefits since it's renewable but the way E85 is produced today it's debatable.
Well actually the performance increases(at least horsepower) on E85 since you can run higher boost on E85 if the car is adapted for it. The 9-5 i drive gives 185 bhp on petrol and 210 bhp on E85. Many tuner cars that run high boost use E85. But there are downsides to E85 that might be to apparent on a hybrid vehicle. Especially non turbo engines.nosense said:That is what my neighbor is experiencing right now. It seems like E85 really decrease the overall performance of the engine.
Fragge said:Well actually the performance increases(at least horsepower) on E85 since you can run higher boost on E85 if the car is adapted for it. The 9-5 i drive gives 185 bhp on petrol and 210 bhp on E85. Many tuner cars that run high boost use E85. But there are downsides to E85 that might be to apparent on a hybrid vehicle. Especially non turbo engines.nosense said:That is what my neighbor is experiencing right now. It seems like E85 really decrease the overall performance of the engine.
David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas!: Fueling an Ethanol Revolution for the 21st Century
A mixture of up to 10 % ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90 % unleaded gasoline may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane number is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded gasoline.
That's a standard line for any non-flex fuel engine with an emissions profile that meets EPA requirements. It says that the vehicle will run the gasoline/ethanol blend found in most of the filling stations in the country. It does not, however, say that other blends won't work or won't meet emissions requirements.Woodman411 said:The official line from the manual, at least the USA manual, is ethanol up to 10% only (3-45):
A mixture of up to 10 % ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90 % unleaded gasoline may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane number is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded gasoline.
This paper presents engine dynamometer testing and modeling analysis of ethanol compared to gasoline at part load conditions where the engine was not knock-limited with either fuel. The purpose of this work was to confirm the efficiency improvement for ethanol reported in published papers, and to quantify the components of the improvement. Testing comparing E85 to E0 gasoline was conducted in an alternating back-to-back manner with multiple data points for each fuel to establish high confidence in the measured results. Approximately 4% relative improvement in brake thermal efficiency (BTE) was measured at three speed-load points. Effects on BTE due to pumping work and emissions were quantified based on the measured engine data, and accounted for only a small portion of the difference. Approximately half of the improvement was accounted for by the fact that the heat of vaporization (HoV) of the fuel detracts from the heat release measured in the combustion bomb used in the determination of heating value, but does not detract from the heat released during combustion in the engine. Engine modeling indicated that the remaining difference in BTE is due to lower burned gas temperatures and consequently lower heat transfer losses. The lower temperatures are due to greater charge cooling and to lower adiabatic flame temperature. CO₂ emissions at part load are reduced about 7% for ethanol compared to gasoline. Approximately 4% CO₂ benefit is due to improved thermal efficiency, and about 3% is due to the increased hydrogen-to-carbon ratio (H/C) of ethanol.
AndyH said:It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
That is only true if your injectors could inject an infinite amount of fuel. Since an increased amount of ethanol in the fuel requires the engine to inject more fuel to sustain an correct A/f ratio the injectors need to be capable of this. Otherwise a lean situation could occur and cause knock/engine damage.AndyH said:and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
Plus: the car does keep logs, so the factory will be able to deduce the running on inappropriate fuel from the readouts.Woodman411 said:AndyH said:It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
Using e50/e85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle can void the manufacturer warranty (https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RFA-Auto-Manufacturer-Fuel-Recommendations-2012-2013-2014-2013.10.30.pdf ). In the USA, specifically for the Outlander PHEV, that could be throwing away a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty - that is significant. Please note that I'm not making a point on whether e50/e85 does any damage. But if one has *any* issues with the powertrain, regardless of the root cause, and the manufacturer discovers e50/e85 was used, they can (and probably will) void the warranty.
In the US, parts of a warranty can only be hurt if the part or change or fuel actually did damage. Since modern closed-loop electronically controlled engines are constantly adjusting the mixture and timing for fuels from 100% gasoline (which is actually different formulations in different parts of the country and also for winter and summer blends) plus different combinations of ethanol up to the rated 10%, going to 50/50 doesn't change anything the car's not already doing. The fuel system is already designed for ethanol, so nothing will break.Woodman411 said:AndyH said:It is possible for valves to 'burn' in older engines without closed-loop ignition/injections systems and that have not been modified to burn a different fuel (larger carburetor jets, for example). In vehicles made since 1996, though, who's fuel systems are already designed for alcohol, and that have oxygen sensors in the exhaust that tell the computer how to adjust fuel injection squirts many times each second, the ethanol/fuel ratio limitation becomes one of the range of adjustment built into the fuel computer. Injectors have to squirt more fuel when the engine is cold and when starting in cold weather (ethanol isn't as volatile as gasoline - it doesn't vaporize as easily when it's cold) (Does anyone remember old engines with primers? We used to manage this stuff manually. ) E50 should run just as smoothly as E10/G90 in modern engines. Moving to higher percentages can be done but would require some experimentation - increase the portion of E85 until you notice the engine taking longer to start, for example, and then back down a bit. Do the test in summer and winter to get the extreme range of allowable mixes. Valves won't burn when the engine's not running too lean - and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
Using e50/e85 in a non-flex-fuel vehicle can void the manufacturer warranty (https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RFA-Auto-Manufacturer-Fuel-Recommendations-2012-2013-2014-2013.10.30.pdf ). In the USA, specifically for the Outlander PHEV, that could be throwing away a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty - that is significant. Please note that I'm not making a point on whether e50/e85 does any damage. But if one has *any* issues with the powertrain, regardless of the root cause, and the manufacturer discovers e50/e85 was used, they can (and probably will) void the warranty.
Injectors are pulse-width modulated. They can be completely closed, completely open, and anywhere in between. The computer, with feedback from outside air temp, engine temp, RPM, throttle position, and oxygen in the exhaust, can run the injectors through the allowable range of the look-up table. And the computer is good from below sea level to beyond 14,000 feet above sea level, winter and summer. As for knock, regular gas is about 97 octane, and ethanol is 105. Ethanol is added to gas specifically to increase the octane rating for what would otherwise be really crappy, substandard fuel. More alcohol means a premium octane rating for less money than regular.Fragge said:That is only true if your injectors could inject an infinite amount of fuel. Since an increased amount of ethanol in the fuel requires the engine to inject more fuel to sustain an correct A/f ratio the injectors need to be capable of this. Otherwise a lean situation could occur and cause knock/engine damage.AndyH said:and the oxygen sensor and closed-loop fuel system makes sure the fuel/air mixture is never too lean.
There is obviously a margin on the capacity of the injectors, but for non turbo cars that margin is not as big as one might think. If a repeated knock situation would occur the engine management system would raise an fault and check engine light would probably light up.
So, is it OK to run E50? Probably.
Can engine damage occur? Perhaps, if the car runs lean for an extended period of time it might cause increased wear on the combustion chamber.
I've done a fair bit of tuning on turbo cars running E85 (I Live i Sweden and we have one of the most established E85 infrastructures in the world) so I have a bit of experience on the matter.AndyH said:Injectors are pulse-width modulated. They can be completely closed, completely open, and anywhere in between. The computer, with feedback from outside air temp, engine temp, RPM, throttle position, and oxygen in the exhaust, can run the injectors through the allowable range of the look-up table. And the computer is good from below sea level to beyond 14,000 feet above sea level, winter and summer. As for knock, regular gas is about 97 octane, and ethanol is 105. Ethanol is added to gas specifically to increase the octane rating for what would otherwise be really crappy, substandard fuel. More alcohol means a premium octane rating for less money than regular.
I understand if nobody wants to take my word for it. I provided some references - do your own research.
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