GX4h heater

[Trex]

..........Air compared to water does need way less energy for increase the temperature .........

:lol: :lol:

As a person that uses thermodynamics for a living this is wrong. Water is a far better conductor of energy to make heat. :roll: The opposite is also true ie water is a better emmiter of heat than air.

But I think you may know this? :lol: and you are just having us on. :roll:

But I do thank you for the laugh you have given me.

You remind me of someone named Carnut that used to be on this forum.

Is that you Carnut coming back to haunt us.? :lol:

Or, are you trolling us? :twisted:

Or is a language problem you are having?

OK .. you can always say I got a lemon PHEV ... so if your PHEV manage better then 7deg temperature increase after 10min of pre heating .. let me know

This IMO is a question, or a statement, that has too many answers. :?

I will fix it for you.

How long is a piece of string? :lol:

Is it when the car is outside in a blizzard or inside in a garage.? etc etc

But again thanks for the laugh.

ps You seem to like the Tesla . I suggest you sell the PHEV and buy the Tesla for your own health and happiness.

 

[Trex]

Now for a fun fact.

Why was the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird painted black? There is a myth going around that it is for camouflage purposes. It did fly around at a height where the sky turns black and quite a bit at night.

But no, it was to help get rid of the heat built up in the plane from flying at Mach 3.

Black attracts heat worse than other colours (e.g. black car in summer ) but also emits heat better (e.g. black radiators in cars)

Sorry could not help throwing that out there.

 

[JSC]

Now for a fun fact.

Why was the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird painted black? T

If they'd painted it white they'd have had to call it the SR-71 Whitebird and that just sounds silly

 

[anko]

Much better explanation. Simple is beautiful ... :lol: :lol:

 

[elm70]

:lol: :lol:

As a person that uses thermodynamics for a living this is wrong. Water is a far better conductor of energy to make heat. :roll: The opposite is also true ie water is a better emmiter of heat than air.

But I think you may know this? :lol: and you are just having us on. :roll:

But I do thank you for the laugh you have given me.

You remind me of someone named Carnut that used to be on this forum.

Is that you Carnut coming back to haunt us.? :lol:

Or, are you trolling us? :twisted:

Or is a language problem you are having?


This IMO is a question, or a statement, that has too many answers. :?

I will fix it for you.

How long is a piece of string? :lol:

Is it when the car is outside in a blizzard or inside in a garage.? etc etc

But again thanks for the laugh.

ps You seem to like the Tesla . I suggest you sell the PHEV and buy the Tesla for your own health and happiness.

My grandma was used to said : Risus abundat in ore stultorum

PS: I see ... it is pointless to explain how inefficient is the PHEV electric heating ... when even the respect for the other is totally missing ...

Anyhow ... Heating the cabin, means heating the air inside it.
With ~7m3 of air volume in the PHEV ... increase these 7m3air temperature of 10deg .. implies consume ideally ~100kj .. that is ~0.028 kwh
The PHEV consume 0.67kwh (30 times more) for increase the temperature of the cabin of only 7deg

Clearly ... since the car cabin is not thermally isolated there is the waste to be consider .. but here we are 30 times away from ideal condition ... we have an efficiency of ~3% ... so 97% is waste when we try to warm up the PHEV cabin.

 

[anko]

so 97% is waste when we try to warm up the PHEV cabin.

For a moment, let's assume you are right. Where do you think this 97% of the energy is going to? I mean places it would not go to with other cars ....

 

[elm70]

so 97% is waste when we try to warm up the PHEV cabin.

For a moment, let's assume you are right. Where do you think this 97% of the energy is going to? I mean places it would not go to with other cars ....

97% goes into "global warming" ... or better it is warming up the ambient around the car.

 

[anko]

97% goes into "global warming" ... or better it is warming up the ambient around the car.

And you know this because ....? I mean, any chance some of these 97% have ended up in your seat cushions, for example?

 

[elm70]

97% goes into "global warming" ... or better it is warming up the ambient around the car.

And you know this because ....? I mean, any chance some of these 97% have ended up in your seat cushions, for example?

For sure .. some is not real waste ... like warm up the seats, the car dash, etc

Still I believe the PHEV does warm up the environment more then it is needed, since on other car (pure EV) 4kw electric heater is consider more then enough for the "job"

 

[anko]

For my car, 4 kW also appears to be more than enough. This morning, interior temp was 28 deg C with an outside temp of -5 deg. Yesterday afternoon, when leaving from work, it was over 30 deg C inside the car, with an outside temp of about -1. I don't see any problem. Seems like a wild goose chase to me.

 

[elm70]

For my car, 4 kW also appears to be more than enough. This morning, interior temp was 28 deg C with an outside temp of -5 deg. Yesterday afternoon, when leaving from work, it was over 30 deg C inside the car, with an outside temp of about -1. I don't see any problem. Seems like a wild goose chase to me.

How long you do pre heating ? 10min , 20min or 30min ?

Is the car sitting in the garage or outside ?

If it is so good ... why Mitsubishi decided to run the ICE when the delta temperature is above 10deg ?

 

[SolarBoy]

Took kids to school this AM, circa -2 degrees C.

Preheated whist plugged into my car charger (for 20 mins).

Drove 4 or so miles to school. Engine came on of course.

Got out, activated pre-heat to keep car warm whilst walking kids to the school.

Got in car, drove home.

Pretty much got a flat battery.

Yet in summer can do the journey 2 or 3 times on 1 charge.

I'll like the car more when warmer weather arrives.

 

[geoffshep69]

Preheated whist plugged into my car charger (for 20 mins).

Drove 4 or so miles to school. Engine came on of course.

Why did the engine come on ? In mine, if I preheat for 10 minutes or more then the car is toasty warm inside and therefore I dont need to operate the heater straight away. But once it drops a few degrees, and I turn on the heater, the ICE does not fire up (presumably because the interior temperature is within 10 degrees of the temperature set on the heater.)

I would have thought that the engine would only come on if the interior temperature dropped significantly, such that there is a more than 10 degree difference to the temperature set on the heater.

I drive 13 miles in the morning, and provided I preheat I have never had the ICE fire up to provide heating.

 

[SolarBoy]

Why did the engine come on ? In mine, if I preheat for 10 minutes or more then the car is toasty warm inside and therefore I dont need to operate the heater straight away. But once it drops a few degrees, and I turn on the heater, the ICE does not fire up (presumably because the interior temperature is within 10 degrees of the temperature set on the heater.)

I would have thought that the engine would only come on if the interior temperature dropped significantly, such that there is a more than 10 degree difference to the temperature set on the heater.

I drive 13 miles in the morning, and provided I preheat I have never had the ICE fire up to provide heating.

Clue was in the anecdote.

School run ... 3 young children ... all doors open ... fair enough it's a stuggle and it is a climb for them ... boot open ... shouty Dad makes no difference. Forgot book/head/pencil case, you name it. #Outnumbered

Oh, and they can open the boot to put their stuff in but they can't reach the button to close it again :lol:

 

[jazzboy]

Thanks for all your comments to my original question, although some have rather lost the thread of what I was asking in the first place (such as how much energy it takes to heat water etc - and by the way, the specific heat capacity of water is higher than most other things (that is, the amount of energy required to raise 1kg of water by 1 deg C)).

My question was about whether the electric heater was a heat pump or a resistive element type. It seems from your answers that it is the latter (an immersion heater set into the ICE coolant circuit, although with a valve to prevent reverse heating of the ICE when it's cold), consuming about 4kw.

This is really daft, especially on an Eco car. Having already got heat pump air con installed for cooling, surely they could have made it reversable?? Mitsu even make aircon units so should know this. To my knowledge there is no appreciable extra hardware required for a chiller aircon unit to make it reversable and to produce heat at the user end rather than cool air.

I'd have thought an electrical consumption of no more than 1kw would be more than sufficient to provide very good heat pump sourced heating (we have aircon chilling/heating in our house so I have a fair idea of A/C power useage.)

Anyway, hopefully a mod for the future - please take note Mitsu!

Thanks again

Peter

 

[anko]

How long you do pre heating ? 10min , 20min or 30min ?

I have set it to 30, but usually I arrive at the car before that. Lets say between 20 and 30.

Is the car sitting in the garage or outside ?

You think I would have reported outside temps if it was in a garage?

If it is so good ... why Mitsubishi decided to run the ICE when the delta temperature is above 10deg ?

Because it is faster? Because it is in some cases more energy efficient? Does it matter? It says nothing about the electric heater being inefficient.

Still chasing wild geese. To me, it seems as if all you have is your own assumption that other cars do better with an equally dimensioned heater. Simply because in your opinion the car and the manufacturer suck at everything, so why would it be any better when it comes to the electric heater? And to back up your assumption you are looking for arguments, one after the other. Is that a strange thought?

 

[anko]

Why did the engine come on ? In mine, if I preheat for 10 minutes or more then the car is toasty warm inside and therefore I dont need to operate the heater straight away. But once it drops a few degrees, and I turn on the heater, the ICE does not fire up (presumably because the interior temperature is within 10 degrees of the temperature set on the heater.)

I would have thought that the engine would only come on if the interior temperature dropped significantly, such that there is a more than 10 degree difference to the temperature set on the heater.

I drive 13 miles in the morning, and provided I preheat I have never had the ICE fire up to provide heating.

Clue was in the anecdote.

School run ... 3 young children ... all doors open ... fair enough it's a stuggle and it is a climb for them ... boot open ... shouty Dad makes no difference. Forgot book/head/pencil case, you name it. #Outnumbered

Oh, and they can open the boot to put their stuff in but they can't reach the button to close it again :lol:

So, you are saying you like your kids more when warmer weather arrives? :lol:

 

[SolarBoy]

So, you are saying you like your kids more when warmer weather arrives? :lol:

I like everyone more in the warmer weather! :lol:

 

[elm70]

If it is so good ... why Mitsubishi decided to run the ICE when the delta temperature is above 10deg ?

Because it is faster? Because it is in some cases more energy efficient? Does it matter? It says nothing about the electric heater being inefficient.

Still chasing wild geese. To me, it seems as if all you have is your own assumption that other cars do better with an equally dimensioned heater. Simply because in your opinion the car and the manufacturer suck at everything, so why would it be any better when it comes to the electric heater? And to back up your assumption you are looking for arguments, one after the other. Is that a strange thought?

I do not have any assumption ... I'm just trying to dig out the real capability and limit of the PHEV

About faster and more efficient ... it is very questionable ... is more efficient to run the ICE when the battery is fully charged ... and the car knows (or should know) that 99% of the trips are inside EV range ? Why on a Tesla a 4k heater is consider perfectly dimension, and on this PHEV some engineer had to hack it?

There are some very questionable decision made by Mitsubishi ... try to hide them just for the sake to always speak good about what we own does not make any value to me.

Anyhow ... based on your experience, using 20min or 30min make a huge difference
Possibly the first few minutes while the PHEV warm up only the coolant the efficiency is close to zero ... and having the process stopped at 10min mark it prevent to bring significant increase of cabin temperature

You could have mention this way before .. and we could have avoid "chasing wild geese"

PS: Speaking about Tesla ... just discover that also the kingdom of Elon Musk there are dummy engineers ... the Tesla S like to lock the doors when the keyfob is left inside and nobody is inside ... many people got stuck outside their car because of this smart decision ... something that can't happen with our PHEV

 

[Trex]

This is really daft, especially on an Eco car.

Oh no, and he does not even have a PHEV yet. :roll: :lol:

please take note Mitsu!

Just wow. :lol:

Sorry as a fellow engineer to those poor Mitsubishi employees I think you are being too presumptuous.