GX4h heater

[anko]

Anyhow ... based on your experience, using 20min or 30min make a huge difference
Possibly the first few minutes while the PHEV warm up only the coolant the efficiency is close to zero ... and having the process stopped at 10min mark it prevent to bring significant increase of cabin temperature

You could have mention this way before .. and we could have avoid "chasing wild geese"

Dear sir, if you had asked how to get a decent cabin temperature, I would have told you to go for at least 20 or 30 minutes of pre heating, right from the start of the thread. As would many others. But you did not ask anything. You made a series of unsubstantiated (if not false) claims about how bad the design is. Your opening ‘contribution’ in this topic was:

Electric heater in the PHEV is inefficient in the worst possible way.

Not much of a question, is it? It was followed by stuff like this:

Unfortunately on the PHEV the electric heat is a half hack ... it does warm the engine coolant .. which cause a big waste of energy if the aim is to heat the cabin .. but it does help for warm up the engine before start it (but I'm not sure this is really used for this aim)

Anyhow ... I think I'm very objective to say that consume 4kw power for 10min and get only +7 deg in the cabin is not really an efficient way to heat the car ... plus all the other errant stuff associated to the PHEV cabin heating that can cause unwanted ICE start.

Just trying to figure it out how is possible that 4kw heating power is so inefficient.

Main reference is the 4kw heating system used on tesla ... that is for sure over dimension by design .. while the PHEV 4kw since it 'wants" the help from ICE... it is clearly "under-dimension"

Clearly ... since the car cabin is not thermally isolated there is the waste to be consider .. but here we are 30 times away from ideal condition ... we have an efficiency of ~3% ... so 97% is waste when we try to warm up the PHEV cabin.

97% goes into "global warming" ... or better it is warming up the ambient around the car.

Where are you asking how to properly warm the cabin? No, you are just bitching about. I mean, I love to share information / insights (good or bad) with you and everybody else on this forum, but you are being SO negative about everything. IMHO, your negativity is blocking the natural flow of information.

Why on a Tesla a 4k heater is consider perfectly dimension, and on this PHEV some engineer had to hack it?

Seriously? This is turning stuff upside down. The Tesla DOES NOT HAVE the option to use the ICE coolant for increased comfort / efficiency, simply because it does not have an ICE. The PHEV does, so at times it uses it. Makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? If Mitsubishi had not allowed the use of hot ICE coolant for heating, you and several others (including myself) would have gone ballistic.

On a side note: I too am (to say the least) not happy with the fact that we have so little control over this mechanism. But that doesn’t say anything about the heater being inefficient. Plus, Mitsubishi has addressed this issue in newer models. Also, we must realise we bought a plug-in hybrid, not a full EV. So, why should the car ‘know’ that 99% of the trips would be within EV range? We may not like it, but the car was designed with ‘beyond EV range’ trips in mind.

There are some very questionable decision made by Mitsubishi ... try to hide them just for the sake to always speak good about what we own does not make any value to me.

I am trying to hide them? I thought it was you making them up. My bad :mrgreen:

 

[Steepndeep]

Will this post gets a little bit out of hand, but I also enjoy a good discussion

If you read my first post (number 8 in the flow, on first "page") I try to give my view on why I think the current heating system is quite good. And also some reasoning why the comparison with the 150W Fan elm proposed does not work.

I have also scrolled some Tesla Forums and the Model S has a resitive heater (as does the PHEV). Some people complain about this and compare to the iMIEV which has (according to the Tesla forum) a heatpump. Problem is that in the iMIEV implementation it stops working (based on forum discussion) below freezing (to avoid icing?, my remark) and uses a resitive heater at those temperatures. So below freezing Tesla, PHEV and iMIEV all use resitive heating.

So all-in-all seems a pretty good implementation for heating while driving.

If you ONLY want to heat cabin while standstill, buy a Defa cabin heater. They are better, but only at heating at standstill with no one in the car. Problem is that as soon as you start the first 2-4 minutes you will blow icecold air into the cabin and onto the cabin temp sensor, which may force ICE start.

So, best to preheat and use as is. To me pretty good implementation.

 

[Trex]

My grandma was used to said : Risus abundat in ore stultorum

I was going to let this pass me by as to be called foolish for laughing at you for making BS statements was probably beneath me going on with it.

I still think you are probably a troll. :roll: :lol:

And as a troll you can be happy because you got me to bite. :lol:

Bravo. Well played.

 

[Trex]

Will this post gets a little bit out of hand, but I also enjoy a good discussion

Get out of hand? Nah. :lol:

No I think some here has tried to be too nice to a bloody big whinger (or a troll) for too long. :lol:

They should be called out for it straight away or it will just fester like a sore. :roll:

But that is just my opinion.

If you read my first post (number 8 in the flow, on first "page") I try to give my view on why I think the current heating system is quite good. And also some reasoning why the comparison with the 150W Fan elm proposed does not work..

Yes I did that in post number 3.

That 150W fan bit was just BS but he/she knows that too. :lol:

I have also scrolled some Tesla Forums and the Model S has a resitive heater (as does the PHEV). Some people complain about this and compare to the iMIEV which has (according to the Tesla forum) a heatpump. Problem is that in the iMIEV implementation it stops working (based on forum discussion) below freezing (to avoid icing?, my remark) and uses a resitive heater at those temperatures. So below freezing Tesla, PHEV and iMIEV all use resitive heating.

So all-in-all seems a pretty good implementation for heating while driving.

If you ONLY want to heat cabin while standstill, buy a Defa cabin heater. They are better, but only at heating at standstill with no one in the car. Problem is that as soon as you start the first 2-4 minutes you will blow icecold air into the cabin and onto the cabin temp sensor, which may force ICE start.

So, best to preheat and use as is. To me pretty good implementation.

Some of this is very interesting. Especially about the Mitsubishi Imiev I think. I do not think the Imiev has a heat pump but am happy to proven wrong. zzcoopej would know as he has one I think.

Yes, from my research on heat pumps, reverse cycle A/Cs they are still having trouble going down to very low temps.

It looks like they have problems with wear on the compressor, special heat exchangers needed, getting rid of moisture because of icing (like you said) so a defroster needed and are still quite expensive. Some of this applies to the reverse cycle A/C as well.

Yes the simple resistive heater for our use in the PHEV is looking ok IMO as well.

And just shoving in a reversing valve in the A/C as some here seem to think is all that is needed may need to have another think about it.

Some of us just should have trusted the Mitsubishi engineers more.

ps Some manufacturers are trying to persevere with heat pumps in cars. I hope they succeed.

 

[elm70]

Some of us just should have trusted the Mitsubishi engineers more.

You are the perfect customer for Mitsubishi

They give you a badly engineer heating system ... and you are very happy about it

 

[elm70]

Will this post gets a little bit out of hand, but I also enjoy a good discussion

If you read my first post (number 8 in the flow, on first "page") I try to give my view on why I think the current heating system is quite good. And also some reasoning why the comparison with the 150W Fan elm proposed does not work.

How can be something so good .. it the ICE need to be started every time ?

How can be so good if the 10min pre-heating does only increase the temperature of only 6 degrees ?

How can be consider a solution the 20/30 min pre-heat solution acceptable, if this has been not been ported into the MMCS ?

Assuming that the heating system does work more effectively in the 20-30 minutes ... why they decided to kick in the ICE even after the 10min of pre-heat ? If in 20min people can bring the car from -5 to +20 ... why start the ICE, why do this in ECO mode ? This type of decision should have been left under the control of the end user of the car, adding a MMCS function, or enhacing the ECU meaning .. but not ... Mitsubishi engineer are either lazy or incompetent

So many things have been done half way .. and it is not really "reassuring" that they fix these in the new models (2017 only) ... since these are pure firmware things .. that any decent car company would have made available to old customer too.

Anyhow ... Mitusbishi as lonely car producer does not exist anymore, since "cheating" on numbers did cost them very expensive, now they need to swallow to be under the Renaul-Nissan "control" ... I think they have tons to learn from Renault ... for instance the fact that Renault with ZOE will allow customers to upgrade their battery from 22kwh to 41kwh ... this is about taking care of own customer

PS: About the 150w heater .. it was an extreme comparison ... clearly a 4kw even if badly done (and I mean the software the control it) can't be worst then a 10 USD 150w heater

PPS: I expect other personal attack (people that can't argue do like to attack the person) .. or some useless comment based on a minor points used for trying to bring upside down the story

PPPS: If people have to invent a hack module over a car for make pure EV mode and stop ICE heating ... it means there is a serious firmware/software problem ... that should have been fixed by the car producer and not only "patched" from the 2017 version

PPPPS: A heat pump is not a solution, since work only with temperature above zero ... so useless in situation where heating system need to be effective .. since many part of the world see regularly every winter temperature below -10

 

[Trex]

Some of us just should have trusted the Mitsubishi engineers more.

You are the perfect customer for Mitsubishi

They give you a badly engineer heating system ... and you are very happy about it

Yes very happy with the HVAC (Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning) on my PHEV.

You are still trolling IMO :lol:

 

[Trex]

Will this post gets a little bit out of hand, but I also enjoy a good discussion

If you read my first post (number 8 in the flow, on first "page") I try to give my view on why I think the current heating system is quite good. And also some reasoning why the comparison with the 150W Fan elm proposed does not work.

How can be something so good .. it the ICE need to be started every time ?

How can be so good if the 10min pre-heating does only increase the temperature of only 6 degrees ?

How can be consider a solution the 20/30 min pre-heat solution acceptable, if this has been not been ported into the MMCS ?

Assuming that the heating system does work more effectively in the 20-30 minutes ... why they decided to kick in the ICE even after the 10min of pre-heat ? If in 20min people can bring the car from -5 to +20 ... why start the ICE, why do this in ECO mode ? This type of decision should have been left under the control of the end user of the car, adding a MMCS function, or enhacing the ECU meaning .. but not ... Mitsubishi engineer are either lazy or incompetent

So many things have been done half way .. and it is not really "reassuring" that they fix these in the new models (2017 only) ... since these are pure firmware things .. that any decent car company would have made available to old customer too.

Anyhow ... Mitusbishi as lonely car producer does not exist anymore, since "cheating" on numbers did cost them very expensive, now they need to swallow to be under the Renaul-Nissan "control" ... I think they have tons to learn from Renault ... for instance the fact that Renault with ZOE will allow customers to upgrade their battery from 22kwh to 41kwh ... this is about taking care of own customer

PS: About the 150w heater .. it was an extreme comparison ... clearly a 4kw even if badly done (and I mean the software the control it) can't be worst then a 10 USD 150w heater

PPS: I expect other personal attack (people that can't argue do like to attack the person) .. or some useless comment based on a minor points used for trying to bring upside down the story

PPPS: If people have to invent a hack module over a car for make pure EV mode and stop ICE heating ... it means there is a serious firmware/software problem ... that should have been fixed by the car producer and not only "patched" from the 2017 version

PPPPS: A heat pump is not a solution, since work only with temperature above zero ... so useless in situation where heating system need to be effective .. since many part of the world see regularly every winter temperature below -10

WARNING. Do not feed the troll. :roll:

That is my opinion.

 

[Dusz]

I think you will find that Renault-Nissan and Mitsubishi will learn from each other. It has been stated that Mitsubishi will learn from R-N regarding pure EV and R-N will learn from Mitsubishi regarding plug in hybrid technology.

As regards all the "faults", maybe you should get a job at Mitsubishi as an engineer so that you can help sort out the so called shortcomings that you perceive. You may then find that it is not as easy as you think and that compromises always have to be made even in more "perfect" cars. There is no car or any other product that is totally perfect. What is perfect for one person is unacceptable for another and vice versa. All products are subject to continous improvement that is the nature of engineering and also nature as Darwin hypothesised.

 

[anko]

Will this post gets a little bit out of hand, but I also enjoy a good discussion

If you read my first post (number 8 in the flow, on first "page") I try to give my view on why I think the current heating system is quite good. And also some reasoning why the comparison with the 150W Fan elm proposed does not work.

How can be something so good .. it the ICE need to be started every time ?

How can be so good if the 10min pre-heating does only increase the temperature of only 6 degrees ?

How can be consider a solution the 20/30 min pre-heat solution acceptable, if this has been not been ported into the MMCS ?

Assuming that the heating system does work more effectively in the 20-30 minutes ... why they decided to kick in the ICE even after the 10min of pre-heat ? If in 20min people can bring the car from -5 to +20 ... why start the ICE, why do this in ECO mode ? This type of decision should have been left under the control of the end user of the car, adding a MMCS function, or enhacing the ECU meaning .. but not ... Mitsubishi engineer are either lazy or incompetent

So many things have been done half way .. and it is not really "reassuring" that they fix these in the new models (2017 only) ... since these are pure firmware things .. that any decent car company would have made available to old customer too.

Anyhow ... Mitusbishi as lonely car producer does not exist anymore, since "cheating" on numbers did cost them very expensive, now they need to swallow to be under the Renaul-Nissan "control" ... I think they have tons to learn from Renault ... for instance the fact that Renault with ZOE will allow customers to upgrade their battery from 22kwh to 41kwh ... this is about taking care of own customer

PS: About the 150w heater .. it was an extreme comparison ... clearly a 4kw even if badly done (and I mean the software the control it) can't be worst then a 10 USD 150w heater

PPS: I expect other personal attack (people that can't argue do like to attack the person) .. or some useless comment based on a minor points used for trying to bring upside down the story

PPPS: If people have to invent a hack module over a car for make pure EV mode and stop ICE heating ... it means there is a serious firmware/software problem ... that should have been fixed by the car producer and not only "patched" from the 2017 version

PPPPS: A heat pump is not a solution, since work only with temperature above zero ... so useless in situation where heating system need to be effective .. since many part of the world see regularly every winter temperature below -10

OMG. We are back at square one :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[greendwarf]

Assuming that the heating system does work more effectively in the 20-30 minutes ... why they decided to kick in the ICE even after the 10min of pre-heat ? If in 20min people can bring the car from -5 to +20 ... why start the ICE, why do this in ECO mode ? This type of decision should have been left under the control of the end user of the car, adding a MMCS function, or enhacing the ECU meaning .. but not ... Mitsubishi engineer are either lazy or incompetent

Surely there is a significant difference in rate of loss of heat to be overcome between heating a stationary car and one travelling at speed :?:

 

[Phevourite]

If anyone wants to know about the heater in the GX4h I suggest that they read Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Technical Review Vol. 46 No. 4 (December 2010). Personally I never miss an issue - no, that is actually a lie as I am waiting till they make the movie! Anyway; it goes into detail about a positive temperature coefficient semiconductor heater for EV and PHEV vehicles developed by Mitsubishi at that time. The issue briefly discusses the fact that using PTC semiconductor and circulating water is safer and that it allows integration with existing systems (i.e. conventional ICE systems). Japanese brochures for the Outlander PHEV mention PTC technology. It has got to be a fair bet that this is exactly the same development as used on the Outlander. Seems like a lot of thought went into it as you might expect.

I think Tesla use PTC semiconductor too. Not sure if theirs is a dry system though.