How much would you pay for a charge?

[Ozukus]

An interesting thing to note that in 4 cities the government have specified that for all new developments they must install charging units in at least 10% of the parking spaces and wire up an additional 10% ready for charge unit installs.

 

[EssexBoy]

An interesting thing to note that in 4 cities the government have specified that for all new developments they must install charging units in at least 10% of the parking spaces and wire up an additional 10% ready for charge unit installs.

Now that's interesting. I had wondered if Govs commitment to EVs was half-hearted and the tax treatment was going to change thus making the purchase of a 10 year old guzzler more cost effective ( I had my heart set on a fully loaded S class). If 'they' are not going to poison the incentives for EV purchase I might take the plunge but there are many more considerations than just purchasing a conventionally powered car. Its still far from a no-brainer I think. :| Perhaps they need to extend the availability of free charging to supermarkets, on-street parking, and and if they charged up the motorway crash barrier we could use a sort of pantograph/scalextrics sort of thing and reserve lane three for EVs perhaps.

 

[maby]

An interesting thing to note that in 4 cities the government have specified that for all new developments they must install charging units in at least 10% of the parking spaces and wire up an additional 10% ready for charge unit installs.

Now that's interesting. I had wondered if Govs commitment to EVs was half-hearted and the tax treatment was going to change thus making the purchase of a 10 year old guzzler more cost effective ( I had my heart set on a fully loaded S class). If 'they' are not going to poison the incentives for EV purchase I might take the plunge but there are many more considerations than just purchasing a conventionally powered car. Its still far from a no-brainer I think. :| Perhaps they need to extend the availability of free charging to supermarkets, on-street parking, and and if they charged up the motorway crash barrier we could use a sort of pantograph/scalextrics sort of thing and reserve lane three for EVs perhaps.

Not sure how much you should read into it - it's easy to be committed when you are forcing others to pay! In much the same way that building some "social housing" is a condition for developers to get planning permission, I guess that this requirement to install charging points is going to apply to private developers applying for planning permission.

 

[EssexBoy]

Not sure how much you should read into it - it's easy to be committed when you are forcing others to pay! In much the same way that building some "social housing" is a condition for developers to get planning permission, I guess that this requirement to install charging points is going to apply to private developers applying for planning permission.

Like all big transitions to new ways of living some incentives from Govt will be needed to accelerate the change I think. There is risk in buying one of these - what will it be worth in 3 years time - will new generation hybrids make it an overlarge doorstop ? I'm not on-board yet, still umming and ahhing. The latest corporate mass-consumer scam from VW and, I am absolutely certain, other manufacturers, should help peeps like me move away from diesel and take a hybrid plunge. I took an interest in hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles but with just as many refuelling stations as I have fingers and toes, its not a consumer-ready tech yet. For EVs though easy public refuelling/top-up will make a big statement. Certainly I cannot muster a substantial premium on purchase price for an EV unless there is a genuine payback for the outlay. The Govs subsidy and Mitsu's base price goes a long way but as I said its not a no-brainer.

 

[greendwarf]

Zac Goldsmith MP (next Lundun mayor?) was suggesting yesterday that more government subsidy for EV will be needed to accelerate the move away from diesel after the VW fiasco :mrgreen:

BTW - can't see fuel cells taking off because the capital investment in new infrastructure would be so much more than boosting EV facilities.

 

[maby]

Zac Goldsmith MP (next Lundun mayor?) was suggesting yesterday that more government subsidy for EV will be needed to accelerate the move away from diesel after the VW fiasco :mrgreen:

BTW - can't see fuel cells taking off because the capital investment in new infrastructure would be so much more than boosting EV facilities.

The difference is that fuel cells would solve the problem of being able to recharge in a couple of minutes.

 

[greendwarf]

Zac Goldsmith MP (next Lundun mayor?) was suggesting yesterday that more government subsidy for EV will be needed to accelerate the move away from diesel after the VW fiasco :mrgreen:

BTW - can't see fuel cells taking off because the capital investment in new infrastructure would be so much more than boosting EV facilities.

The difference is that fuel cells would solve the problem of being able to recharge in a couple of minutes.

But the basic infrastructure is already in place for electric cars world-wide you just need more sockets and/or wireless charging. Toyota has had to build the fuelling stations in California to be able to operate the cars as demonstrators - apparently the oil companies weren't interested :lol:

You also can't use the fuel cell for your lawn mower, chain saw etc or borrow some from you neighbour and when visiting relatives up a farm track in Ireland but there are very few places you can drive to and can't find a electric socket.

Whilst there is a clear advantage in nil tail pipe emissions over petrol/diesel at point of use, I doubt the energy used to produce hydrogen fuel is less than for electricity, so little or no overall environmental gain for governments to fund and then on top, there are all the distribution costs. I'd be interested to see a business case that showed fuel cells are actually cheaper/greener than EV.

 

[jthspace]

Energy in the future and arguments about burning fossil fuel to make electricity etc etc . . . .

Based on the importance of energy for eliminating poverty and for sustainable development of the mankind as a whole, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution which proclaimed the years of 2014-2024 as the Decade of “Sustainable Energy for All”

The program of construction of the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) has become widely known throughout the world; Russia, the USA, Canada, China, India, South Korea, Japan and the EU countries all participate in this project. The estimated time of construction completion is 2020, the budget is more than 15 billion euros. :shock:

The temperature of the thermonuclear reaction is expected to be over 100 million degrees, which will exceed the temperature of the Sun many times. In the event of successful implementation of the ITER project, the industrial application of the thermonuclear technology is planned to be commenced after 2050, which exceeds the time of the SEFA Program completion by 20 years. :roll:

It's called "Over Unity" - it puts out more than it takes in - sounds weird but you can do it already today.

The theoretical energy conversion efficiency in the thermonuclear process is 1:5. ​
However, it has been asserted that this figure can be increased to 1:10 on the experimental thermonuclear reactor, that is, the reactorʼs electricity consumption capacity will be 40 megawatts of electricity whilst its production capacity will reach 400 megawatts.​

A colleague, Yuri Bychkov, discovered the previously unknown phenomenon of the release and accumulation of over-unity energies in multiphase gas-liquid flows that were accelerated up to supersonic velocities.​ This led to the patent DE No. 102011018840 “A method for harvesting wind energy and converting same into different forms of energy, and a wind turbine for carrying out the said method”. We already have a third generation engineering model in operation and it is providing 1:5 energy output - 3.5kWh of energy in from wind power and producing the equivalent of 17 kWh of hot water and hot air. This version is about the size of a single bed laid on its side but is rather weighty (being an engineering model, it is "over-engineered").

The current unit would provide heating and hot water for 3 or 4 two-bed apartments. Other versions are on the drawing board and we have a version that also produces electricity, one to produce potable water from the atmosphere as well as a version (ready in 3 to 5 years) that could provide space habitat heating (we have an early agreement for someone to space-test this for us).

Our Over Unity Engine was offered to a major European company who declined to buy it as "it would make 40% of the company redundant within a year". It is now being developed via private funding before being sold-on in the future.

There is a lot of work being done so hopefully we will all have sockets to charge our cars from. :mrgreen:

 

[gwatpe]

The over unity machines are really bogus. The windmill version described above should not need any windmill, and still produce over unity energy. As long as the machine fed back the correct amount of energy from the surplus it made, it should self sustain. Surely some of the "HOT AIR" or "HOT WATER" energy could be converted to electricity, so no windmill would be needed.

Until I see a machine that is truly self contained, produce a surplus of energy, for at least a month, with no external energy inputs, I will be a skeptic.

 

[maby]

.....

But the basic infrastructure is already in place for electric cars world-wide you just need more sockets and/or wireless charging. Toyota has had to build the fuelling stations in California to be able to operate the cars as demonstrators - apparently the oil companies weren't interested :lol:

You also can't use the fuel cell for your lawn mower, chain saw etc or borrow some from you neighbour and when visiting relatives up a farm track in Ireland but there are very few places you can drive to and can't find a electric socket.

Whilst there is a clear advantage in nil tail pipe emissions over petrol/diesel at point of use, I doubt the energy used to produce hydrogen fuel is less than for electricity, so little or no overall environmental gain for governments to fund and then on top, there are all the distribution costs. I'd be interested to see a business case that showed fuel cells are actually cheaper/greener than EV.

But you are missing the most important point here - it really does not matter how ecological or cheap electricity generation is while the battery technology is so primitive. EVs cannot replace petrol vehicles until the range approaches 500 miles and the recharge time is brought down to three or four minutes. With a range of less than 100 miles and charge times of half an hour, they will remain niche products unless the price drops to the point where you can justify one as the weekday runabout while also having the gas guzzler on the drive for weekends.

Most commercial fuel cells actually burn methanol these days, not hydrogen. Refuelling is as simple as filling the tank with petrol, so can happen in a couple of minutes. The cells are quite expensive and life expectancy is not great, but I think the replacement cost is largely down to a small market and could come down if volumes went up. Realistically speaking, nothing is going to replace petrol until the price goes up significantly, but without a major step forward in battery technology, I think hydrogen or fuel cells will be the preferred replacement.

 

[greendwarf]

Most commercial fuel cells actually burn methanol these days, not hydrogen.

Possibly, but both the Toyota & London bus projects are with hydrogen - meanwhile other manufacturers continue/plan to release plug-in hybrids. VHS v Betamax again? :lol:

 

[maby]

Most commercial fuel cells actually burn methanol these days, not hydrogen.

Possibly, but both the Toyota & London bus projects are with hydrogen - meanwhile other manufacturers continue/plan to release plug-in hybrids. VHS v Betamax again? :lol:

Well, plugin hybrids are the pragmatic option given the current state of technology.

Do the London buses run on hydrogen fuel cells, or simply burn hydrogen in a customised ICE? I guess that methanol is not such a high energy density as hydrogen, but it does reduce the handling issues

 

[jthspace]

The over unity machines are really bogus. The windmill version described above should not need any windmill, and still produce over unity energy. As long as the machine fed back the correct amount of energy from the surplus it made, it should self sustain. Surely some of the "HOT AIR" or "HOT WATER" energy could be converted to electricity, so no windmill would be needed.

Until I see a machine that is truly self contained, produce a surplus of energy, for at least a month, with no external energy inputs, I will be a skeptic.

We have had the generation 1 machine running for 24 months. What you are confusing is Over Unity with Perpetual Motion. Perpetual motion is impossible. What the Over Unity engine does is produce energy more efficiently. As you will have read, the reactor in the engine creates a hydro kinetic reaction within the chamber which produces heat. The unit uses only two "ingredients" which are completely green. Yes, we can (and have) added a system to produce electricity as well but no system is lossless so the efficiency is affected.

The unit is powered by a wind generator, not a windmill although that is a possibility but we have not developed a mechanical interface, just an electrical one.

We have experimented with a unit that produces steam so it is theoretically possible to mount a wind generator in the air dam of a large lorry/truck and develop a hybrid diesel/steam powered vehicle, or even get new generation steam trains running again. But that is a few years ahead as we are concentrating on the systems I have already mentioned.

Jeff

 

[gwatpe]

Ah, we have a heat pump.

 

[maby]

Ah, we have a heat pump.

which may appear to be "Over Unity", but isn't really.

 

[jthspace]

Ah, we have a heat pump.

No, we have a reactor that is creating a hydro-shock as air and water are mixed at over 340 metres per second, or over 1200 kph. This causes the water to heat up as the energy has to be displaced.

The OUE then separates the hot air from the hot water and can store it in a cylinder similar to hot water cylinders found in most homes. There are multiple ways of then using this stored energy. The technology is scalable.

The device has been patented in over 190 countries and jurisdictions as of July 2015.

A heat pump is a device that provides heat energy from a source of heat to a destination called a "heat sink". Heat pumps are designed to move thermal energy opposite to the direction of spontaneous heat flow by absorbing heat from a cold space and releasing it to a warmer one.

Dr. Jeff

 

[greendwarf]

Most commercial fuel cells actually burn methanol these days, not hydrogen.

Possibly, but both the Toyota & London bus projects are with hydrogen - meanwhile other manufacturers continue/plan to release plug-in hybrids. VHS v Betamax again? :lol:

Well, plugin hybrids are the pragmatic option given the current state of technology.

Do the London buses run on hydrogen fuel cells, or simply burn hydrogen in a customised ICE? I guess that methanol is not such a high energy density as hydrogen, but it does reduce the handling issues

AFAIK they are real fuel cell vehicles not conversions. Interestingly they claim 19 hours between re-fuels :mrgreen:

 

[greendwarf]

Latest Newsletter from Source London - of particular interest for new owners:-

"Many of you may have noticed already that Source London has improved significantly over the past few months. We are pleased to report that the level of charge point availability is now at 85% compared to 60% availability this time last year. This was made possible thanks to a growing number of private and public partners. We now have 7 boroughs who count on us to solve any type of maintenance issues in Greenwich, Hackney, Hammersmith & Fulham, Kensington & Chelsea, Lewisham, Southwark and Sutton. Additional boroughs will be announced in the coming months.

Source London will deliver an additional 150 charge points bringing the number of points in Source London's network to 1,000 points by the end of January 2016. We are committed to accelerate our expansion plans to reach 6,000 points by 2018.

Charging your electric vehicle must be faster and easier, which is why we have also started working on a number of new features. We want to know what you value most and what you need. We will email you a short survey to complete next week to hear directly from you.

Since September 2014 almost 4,000 members have registered with Source London and we now have 6,000 members. Thank you for choosing us!

We want to make sure you have access to the best possible charging experience and technology is what will help us achieve this. Our new charge points have a user-friendly large touch screen and can charge all types of electric vehicles.

We will continuously upgrade our smart technology and improve reliability levels by ensuring a 24/7 connection to our live monitoring system. This will help us fix minor issues remotely and rapidly dispatch a team of technicians to minimise disruption to the service.

Since upgrading charge points in the borough of Southwark we've seen a 3 fold increase in usage!

As London's only citywide charging network we want to help support the uptake of EVs for exactly the same reasons you chose to give up your traditional polluting car. Improving the infrastructure is essential and making sure charging fees remain affordable is just as important to us.

We are pleased to announce that until the second half of 2016 existing Source London members will not have to pay anything and all new members will only pay a one off registration fee of £5. All Source London members will have access to the entire Source London network for free, regardless of usage and frequency.

Once we have delivered on our plan to have 95% of Source London fully available, we will introduce new features and additional charge points. Only then will we introduce charging fees but rest assured that the service will always remain reasonable for our members and the growing number of EV enthusiasts in and around London."

 

[greendwarf]

Similar one from Polar https://www.chargemasterplc.com/blog/cat/news/post/Polar/

Note the 14 , yes 14 , charge points installed at Waitrose at Nine Elms - of course, this will be next door to the new US Embassy. :idea: