HOW TO USE correctly OR SHIFT B GEARS FOR FUEL ECONOMY

[maby]

...

I do not know what language your native one is, but a transmission is a piece of gear, not a philosophical concept.

My native language is English and I'm a professional author. "Transmission" in this context is the "piece of gear" that links the engine to the road wheels and Continuously Variable Transmission is simply a transmission that permits any ratio between the engine speed and the road speed. Wikipedia (admittedly not the ultimate authority) is quite happy to describe a Prius as CVT - it is not identical to a PHEV, but both rely on generators and electric motors for road speed control. There is not a cone, steel belt or chain in sight!

 

[anko]

...

I do not know what language your native one is, but a transmission is a piece of gear, not a philosophical concept.

My native language is English and I'm a professional author. "Transmission" in this context is the "piece of gear" that links the engine to the road wheels and Continuously Variable Transmission is simply a transmission that permit any ratio between the engine speed and the road speed. Wikipedia (admittedly not the ultimate authority) is quite happy to describe a Prius as CVT - it is not identical to a PHEV, but both rely on generators and electric motors for road speed control. There is not a cone, steel belt or chain in sight!

To my knowledge, nobody said anything about a cone, belt or chain. As a matter of fact, there Prius transmission features a planetary gear set, that effectively can do the same thing as the cones in other CVT's. But the Prius transmission is a TOTALLY different thing, compared to that of the PHEV: the Prius engine is permanently connected to the wheels in a mechanical fashion, although the gear ratio can be 0:1 and even negative. MG1 its used to vary the ratio between the engine and the MG2 / front axle assembly. This is truly a CVT, although a motor driven one. But it has nothing to do with the serial hybrid mode of the PHEV, in which there is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels (apart from the supports that prevent the engine from falling onto the tarmac).

 

[maby]

...

To my knowledge, nobody said anything about a cone, belt or chain. As a matter of fact, there is a planetary gear set, that effectively can do the same thing. The Prius transmission is a TOTALLY different thing: the engine is permanently connected to the wheels in a mechanical fashion, although the gear ratio can be 0:1. MG1 its used to vary the ratio between the engine and the MG2 / front axle assembly. This is truly a CVT, although a motor controlled one. But it has nothing to do with the serial hybrid mode of the PHEV, in which there is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels.

All true, of course, but it does not alter the fact that a CVT is simply a transmission that allows an infinite (more or less) range of ratios between engine speed and road speed. That is what the PHEV transmission does - or are you going to claim that it does not have a transmission when it is in series mode - because that would be silly!

 

[anko]

...

To my knowledge, nobody said anything about a cone, belt or chain. As a matter of fact, there is a planetary gear set, that effectively can do the same thing. The Prius transmission is a TOTALLY different thing: the engine is permanently connected to the wheels in a mechanical fashion, although the gear ratio can be 0:1. MG1 its used to vary the ratio between the engine and the MG2 / front axle assembly. This is truly a CVT, although a motor controlled one. But it has nothing to do with the serial hybrid mode of the PHEV, in which there is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels.

All true, of course, but it does not alter the fact that a CVT is simply a transmission that allows an infinite (more or less) range of ratios between engine speed and road speed. That is what the PHEV transmission does - or are you going to claim that it does not have a transmission when it is in series mode - because that would be silly!

A staircase allows me to get to the second floor. So does an elevator. But that doesn't mean an elevator is a staircase.

From what you write now, I slowly start to believe that you are no just playing word games but are sincerely misinformed. Yes, of course there is a transmission in play. As a matter of fact there are two. One is between the front E-motor and front axle. The other is between the rear E-motor and the rear axle. Both are fixed ration transmissions.

Can I ask you, what exactly is being transmitted by the transmission you have in mind? And how fast this transmission is spinning, say in the middle?

 

[Carnut]

Anko.
I am not claiming to know exactly how the PHEV CVT functions, I am merely repeating what Mitsubishi UK told me.
A real cvt , as in the Honda Jazz changes gear for you. You put the lever in drive and the car gets the right ratio for the speed and load. The only decision the driver has to make is which position to put the lever. Drive. Neutral, park or reverse.
On the PHEV THE CAR DOES EXACTLY THE SAME. As I understand it from Mitsubishi. The difference being that there is no lever for the driver to move.
You and Jaapv make dogmatic statements about the PHEV transmission but neither of you state the source of your information. I repeatedly state that
I phoned Mitsubishi UK AND THEY TOLD ME THERE is a CVT GEARBOX IN THE PHEV. Are you or Jaapv Mitsubishi engineers? Do you have any automotive engineering qualifications?
If so please declare them and the source of your information. In which case I will claim misunderstanding & will be happy to apologise.
I spent my working life in Shell Automotive lubricants and hold a diploma in mechanical engineering (automotive) so I am not some numpty who knows nothing about cars.
I say again....... if anybody thinks they know better than Mitsubishi, either prove your information source, or as they say here either 'put up or shut up'.
It is very easy to make statements with no back up. I have back up. Mitsubishi
JimB. Hope you enjoyed the show and your popcorn :lol:

 

[Claymore]

The show's not over till the fat lady sings.



Munching popcorn.

JimB

 

[Bladevane]

The explanation of the "transmission" is explained on a basic level here http://www.gkn.com/media/News/Pages/GKN-Driveline-Multi-Mode-eTransmission-on-the-Mitsubishi-Outlander-PHEV.aspx

IF you "save as" the image it blows up nicely and shows details that I am sure will fan the flames of discussion.

 

[maby]

A staircase allows me to get to the second floor. So does an elevator. But that doesn't mean an elevator is a staircase.

From what you write now, I slowly start to believe that you are no just playing word games but are sincerely misinformed. Yes, of course there is a transmission in play. As a matter of fact there are two. One is between the front E-motor and front axle. The other is between the rear E-motor and the rear axle. Both are fixed ration transmissions.

Can I ask you, what exactly is being transmitted by the transmission you have in mind? And how fast this transmission is spinning, say in the middle?

The "transmission" transmits power - usually with some gearing ratio to match the characteristics of the power source to the demands at the point of consumption. You are talking about a "gearbox" which is one specific type of transmission. As someone - actually you, I think - pointed out here some time ago, a PHEV running in serial mode is almost identical to a diesel electric locomotive. That is a vehicle with an electric CVT - the diesel engine generates power that drives a generator which, in turn, drives an electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels, but that does not mean that there is no transmission. When I drive my PHEV in serial mode on a relatively flat battery, the engine revs are not pegged to the road speed in any fixed ratio. The power that moves the car is coming from the petrol engine and is being transmitted to the wheels via the generator and motor. The engine revs do go up and down to some extent in proportion to the road speed, but the primary factor determining engine revs is more the acceleration requested than the road speed. The engine runs at a more or less constant speed which the control systems keep close to the point of maximum efficiency and the road speed is controlled by the current fed to the electric motors - any spare current is dumped into the battery. That is most definitely a power transmission mechanism and, since the engine speed is not directly proportional to the road speed, it is continuously variable.

 

[Bladevane]

Maby - your explanation is succinct and easy to follow. Well done.

 

[maby]

Maby - your explanation is succinct and easy to follow. Well done.

That's what I'm paid for. I also write contracts.

 

[greendwarf]

I was taught yesterday by local Mitsubishi sales manager how to use the paddles properly. He regularly gets 30 miles on EV when starting from a 24mile estimate.

I would not take this all too serious. Let him explain the following to you: if he regularly achieves 30 actual EV miles, why is his estimate only 24 miles?

Typically, the only way to outperform the estimate by such a big number is a significant positive change in driving conditions, compared to the previous trip: lower speed, down hill instead of up hill, tail wind instead of head wind, higher ambient temperatures, that kind of things. But conditions cannot consistently improve. If I would drive to work in the morning via the motorway and would return home in the afternoon via secondary roads, I could probably beat the estimate every afternoon. But I would be defeated big time every morning.

To be fair to the dealer his use is not typical. Presumably lots of very short journeys. If the range is recalculated every time you re-start and is based on the last one then, if his last regular journey before re-charging is uphill or at high speed then the estimate will be low but if actual usage on the various trips is slower or starts with a long downhill then it is quite possible to end up doing more actual miles than the estimated.

 

[Carnut]

Well done Mayb.
Better put than I did.
Hopefullg what younwrote will clarify what I was trying get across.
Thanks.

 

[anko]

The explanation of the "transmission" is explained on a basic level here http://www.gkn.com/media/News/Pages/GKN-Driveline-Multi-Mode-eTransmission-on-the-Mitsubishi-Outlander-PHEV.aspx

IF you "save as" the image it blows up nicely and shows details that I am sure will fan the flames of discussion.

Thank you! I've posted this information on this forum, more than a year ago (http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11152#p11152).

 

[anko]

I phoned Mitsubishi UK AND THEY TOLD ME THERE is a CVT GEARBOX IN THE PHEV.

Carnut, I do believe you. But you should not believe all they tell you Best explanation is that they are not taking you all too serious and think the driving experience is best explained by telling you there is a CVT. Or the behaviour is CVT like. Have a close look at the GKN eTransmission pictures, and tell me what you see. Chances are, whomever you talked to has never seen these pictures.

 

[anko]

I was taught yesterday by local Mitsubishi sales manager how to use the paddles properly. He regularly gets 30 miles on EV when starting from a 24mile estimate.

I would not take this all too serious. Let him explain the following to you: if he regularly achieves 30 actual EV miles, why is his estimate only 24 miles?

Typically, the only way to outperform the estimate by such a big number is a significant positive change in driving conditions, compared to the previous trip: lower speed, down hill instead of up hill, tail wind instead of head wind, higher ambient temperatures, that kind of things. But conditions cannot consistently improve. If I would drive to work in the morning via the motorway and would return home in the afternoon via secondary roads, I could probably beat the estimate every afternoon. But I would be defeated big time every morning.

To be fair to the dealer his use is not typical. Presumably lots of very short journeys. If the range is recalculated every time you re-start and is based on the last one then, if his last regular journey before re-charging is uphill or at high speed then the estimate will be low but if actual usage on the various trips is slower or starts with a long downhill then it is quite possible to end up doing more actual miles than the estimated.

But you agree with me, it has noting to do with "smart use of the peddles"?

 

[maby]

I phoned Mitsubishi UK AND THEY TOLD ME THERE is a CVT GEARBOX IN THE PHEV.

Carnut, I do believe you. But you should not believe all they tell you Best explanation is that they are not taking you all too serious and think the driving experience is best explained by telling you there is a CVT. Or the behaviour is CVT like. Have a close look at the GKN eTransmission pictures, and tell me what you see. Chances are, whomever you talked to has never seen these pictures.

I'm trying very hard to find a way that does not break forum rules of saying that this is rubbish...

 

[anko]

I phoned Mitsubishi UK AND THEY TOLD ME THERE is a CVT GEARBOX IN THE PHEV.

Carnut, I do believe you. But you should not believe all they tell you Best explanation is that they are not taking you all too serious and think the driving experience is best explained by telling you there is a CVT. Or the behaviour is CVT like. Have a close look at the GKN eTransmission pictures, and tell me what you see. Chances are, whomever you talked to has never seen these pictures.

I'm trying very hard to find a way that does not break forum rules of saying that this is rubbish...

They told him there is a CVT between the engine and the generator. Care to defend that statement too?

 

[maby]

...

They told him there is a CVT between the engine and the generator. Care to defend that statement too?

I don't see that statement anywhere - do you? The word "gearbox" is a bit questionable, but I suspect that that is Carnut's rather inaccurate reporting of what he was told. I would assume that the statement was more along the lines of "Yes, the PHEV has CVT" in which case I would fully agree. It is CVT between the petrol engine and the wheels - up to the point when it switches to parallel mode.

 

[Carnut]

I did not mention anything to with paddles when I rang Mitsubishi.
I simply asked "Is there a CVT gear box in the PHEV transmission?"
She said she would enquire of the technical team and 2 hours later rang back and said "Yes, there is a CVT gear box in the PHEV.
If the people that think they know better than the manufacturer want to make unfounded and so far uncorroborated statements they can trundle along in their own little bubble.as far as I am concerned. It matters not one jot or tittle. The car is the car, it does what it does.
I cannot understand why they argue to the point of almost calling me a liar. Making fatuous comments with no proof or backup for their statements.
I am now bored brainless with this pointless argument and I expect poor old JimB has, by now run out of popcorn and left the building, as I am now going to do! :lol:

 

[maby]

I did not mention anything to with paddles when I rang Mitsubishi.
I simply asked "Is there a CVT gear box in the PHEV transmission?"
She said she would enquire of the technical team and 2 hours later rang back and said "Yes, there is a CVT gear box in the PHEV.
If the people that think they know better than the manufacturer want to make unfounded and so far uncorroborated statements they can trundle along in their own little bubble.as far as I am concerned. It matters not one jot or tittle. The car is the car, it does what it does.
I cannot understand why they argue to the point of almost calling me a liar. Making fatuous comments with no proof or backup for their statements.
I am now bored brainless with this pointless argument and I expect poor old JimB has, by now run out of popcorn and left the building, as I am now going to do! :lol:

Well, the term "gearbox" is unfortunate and sloppy. It is certainly a CVT transmission - the physical gearbox in the PHEV is a very crude thing that only applies in parallel mode at high speeds.