Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold

[elm70]

I got my 12V remote switch ... and some spare fuse to be used for make "jumpers" cables

Does anybody knows where I can get a 12V source (possibly only when the car is "on") for power the 12v remote switch ?
Ideally this 12v source should be in the fuse box under the hood, or next to it.

Thanks

e_lm_70

ps: After almost 6 months of usage .. my foot is already calibrated to push up to 90% of the EV power .. so .. hardly now I start ICE by accident .. still I'm using only 50 to 55kw power instead of the full 60kw ... driving experience is more "rich" when it is allowed to floor the gas pedal and have the ICE no starting .. since the pure 60kw electric power can make the car accelerate quite fast, also without ICE help

 

[kpetrov]

New user here 2018 canadian PHEV.
My ICE starts under 5C ambient temperature even with heating set to LOW and even with air circulation OFF.
Sitting on a traffic light with running ICE on my 5 kilometer trip to work in a hybrid vehicle PRICELESS!!!

Do you guys have a final solution? Any feedback on fuel pump disabling?

 

[jaapv]

Use a battery hairdryer to heat the interior temperature sensor. :lol:
The alternative is to preheat it using the app or the timer, or park it in a heated garage.
Pulling the fuel pump fuse will work, but it will generate error messages. It would be a hassle too, pulling and replacing according to intended use.
In general - this is a PHEV, not an EV. If I had wanted a vehicle without ICE I would have bought something without an ICE, like a Tesla. I didn't, so I accept that it will use the full program regulating the play between electrical and internal combustion.

 

[kpetrov]

Use a battery hairdryer to heat the interior temperature sensor. :lol:
The alternative is to preheat it using the app or the timer, or park it in a heated garage.
Pulling the fuel pump fuse will work, but it will generate error messages. It would be a hassle too, pulling and replacing according to intended use.
In general - this is a PHEV, not an EV. If I had wanted a vehicle without ICE I would have bought something without an ICE, like a Tesla. I didn't, so I accept that it will use the full program regulating the play between electrical and internal combustion.

If I wanted an sauna on wheels I would have bought one.
Don't see the point to preheat or use ICE to heat an vehicle for 5 km trips. Completely unnecessary.
Doing short trips with conventional ICE only vehicle is no good practice as well.
My first question was did anyone heard for starting ICE if temp. is set to low, air circulation system is then switched off and ECO is on? Seems very strange!

Pulling the fuel pump fuse will be my last resort in dealing with flawed design. First will try to full the cabin temp. sensor, but from what I have been reading it is not enough to completely prevent ICE from kicking in. Should outside temp. sensor behind the grill be fulled as well?

 

[jaapv]

It is hardly a flawed. design - It will run the ICE at temperatures below 10º C for the first few kms to get the oil somewhat warmed up to prepare for the full-power ICE starts that it may have to make during driving. That it warms the cabin is a welcome secondary function. The only other way to prevent it starting is to set the interior temperature to minimum (15ºC) before switching off and leaving it there whilst driving the next day. Personally I prefer a snug and defrosted car in the morning over freezing my toes for the sake of saving 10 cents worth of electricity to pre-heat and having my breath mist the windshield.
I don't think that it would be wise to disconnect the outside temperature sensor as it plays a role in the temperature management of the. battery in warmer times.
If you search the forum. you will find that there was somebody in Poland selling a throttle-response modifier box and. temperature sensor sonde that would prevent cold weather ICE starts.
If you have a problem with an ICE running why did you buy a PHEV instead of a fully electric vehicle? :?:

 

[greendwarf]

OP doesn't say where he is in Canada, nor whether problem recurs when travelling later in the day but a 5c ambient temp in the morning suggests a below 0c overnight. If parked in the shade the car could still be more than 10 degrees below the 15c ICE trigger point when started. :idea:

To be fair to the OP, I doubt that the charging infrastructure in Canada is up to that in even the bleak desolation of a Dutch polder, :lol: , so a "back up" ICE is probably a wise decision if you venture outside of the city

 

[kpetrov]

I can confirm, today -2C ambient temp. ICE kicked in after first minute of driving. Battery 80% ventilation system set to LOWEST temp. and OFF for few days already. EV and ECO modes on.
"ICE starts warming up the oil to prepare for the full-power that it may have to make during driving!!!" What a crap? I can pres SAVE or CHARGE for that or at least turn off ECO mode for that matter. Why not start the ICE in the middle of the night to prepare it for an eventual emergency trip to the hospital?

Why I bought plugin hybrid and not pure electric... exactly for the reason that I don't need an cold ICE start for my 5-10 miles daily trips but versatile enough for longer trips. That's why plugin not simple hybrid as well.

Yep it is very, very flawed design - software to cold start ICE every day (4-5 months) for few minutes without any need for it.
The fuel pump fuse is gone immediately... for now.
Outside inside temp. sensor don't need to be gone permanently and forever but can be on a switch fooled to higher reading.

 

[jaapv]

Still, I cannot but wonder at people who buy a multi-10.000$ piece of gear without checking whether the design fits their needs/wants and then complain about that very design. The design is not flawed - the choice is flawed. Note that preventing the ICE from starting impacts the performance of the car significantly.
It is interesting that Mitsubishi apparently eliminated the workaround to prevent the ICE from starting in the cold. There must be a technical rationale to make the car behave that way*.
One could inquire from Vtech whether their "box" for the older model has been updated to fit the newer generation.
https://evtun.com/phev-box.html

* Note this quote from the company that sells the "ICEheater stop" that does exactly what you want.

preheating of oil/engine in winter to avoid demolishing engine by rapid full power demand while frozen,

 

[greendwarf]

So the OP has confirmed my guess about overnight temp and that "workaround" is still probably there. Ambient temp of -2c is 7 degrees below the heating trigger point, so car is performing exactly as designed - except that the Japanese couldn't imagine that some Spartan Canadian would not want to use pre-heating to bring the internal; temp up above the trigger point. Of course, if he really wants to avoid the ICE starting, I'm quite happy to sell him my ageing & battered 2014 Gx3h (the one without the electric heater) if he'll pay the shipping costs from UK. :lol:

 

[kpetrov]

Still, I cannot but wonder at people who buy a multi-10.000$ piece of gear without checking whether the design fits their needs/wants and then complain about that very design. The design is not flawed - the choice is flawed. Note that preventing the ICE from starting impacts the performance of the car significantly.
It is interesting that Mitsubishi apparently eliminated the workaround to prevent the ICE from starting in the cold. There must be a technical rationale to make the car behave that way*.
One could inquire from Vtech whether their "box" for the older model has been updated to fit the newer generation.
https://evtun.com/phev-box.html

* Note this quote from the company that sells the "ICEheater stop" that does exactly what you want.

preheating of oil/engine in winter to avoid demolishing engine by rapid full power demand while frozen,

Actually I did research the vehicle. One of the PHEV's with great options for the driver to choose from: EVmode, CHARGE, SAVE, regenerative breaking level all depending on your personal needs during specifics of your trip. No matter how "smart" is the technology it can't know how long will be the trip, is it going to be on local roads only or on highway with following city driving or charging availability. Manually choosing the driving mode and customization is one of the reasons I got the Outlander.
Although I totally understand the reasoning behind "preheating of oil/engine in winter to avoid demolishing engine by rapid full power demand while frozen" and fool-proofing the vehicle I can't grasp the reasoning behind the deliberately eliminating the choice of avoiding cold ICE starts on short trips when it is completely unnecessary and even bad for the engine.
I believe you understand that cold starting the ICE four times a day for 3-5 minute trips is not the best scenario to fool-proof an vehicle.
When cold the vehicle can start in that fool-proof mode, but should not be forced deliberately in it all the time.

There aren't so many complains about that specific design and it's hard to hear about it unless you own the vehicle. Moreover that particular design alone could not turn me away from the purchase.

I cannot but wander at people who complain when someone want to improve something to fit better their specific need!

Update: preheating the cabin-only to approximately 20 Celsius do not make a change. 0 ambient plus strong sunshine and worm cabin start the ICE.
Does automatic vehicle pre-heating heat the coolant as well!?

 

[Fjpod]

So, having owned a pure battery EV and a hybrid in the past, and now the owner of a phev, it is my opinion, that if you have significant cold weather, you are better off firing up the ICE to heat the cabin and to defrost the windshield, rather than burn up your batteries quickly.

I have a very short commute to work and most cold mornings I don't even turn the heat on, battery or ICE because my ICE barely heats up enough before I get there, and the heat/defrosters just suck the battery down.

If I know I am going to be in the car for more than 15 minutes, and I try to use the battery to warm up, it will work, but the cabin cools down too quickly, and the battery goes down even faster.... so what's the point. Use the ICE to heat the car in cold weather or if you have a heavy need for defrosting.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[greendwarf]

Perhaps, like the sump heater in at least Finland, this a Canada specific feature to avoid warranty claims - can't blame Mitsu for protecting their business interests - have you asked Mitsu Canada about it?

 

[jaapv]

The engine has been designed to withstand frequent cold(ish) starts at low to medium power, but the scenario the designers want to avoid is people flooring it when ice-cold, demanding full power. I think that the added fuel consumption from the present system, low-power running for 4 kms, will be negligible, especially considering that the heater can pull up to 4 kW.
In general, the car will return optimum performance between 15 and 25 ºC, deteriorating rapidly as temperatures drop.

 

[kpetrov]

What Mitsu Canada said about it is the usual:
The engine may start under the following conditions.
· When the drive battery level becomes low and requires charging
· EV system is hot or cold
· While the heater or defroster is on
· To prevent damage to the engine caused by fuel deterioration... bla, bla, bla
· The driving styles or higher energy demand also starts the engine.

Finally after explaining the actual situation the reply was this:

We regret to inform you that the different components are managed by the system and the settings cannot be forced to EV only.


Update:
I fooled the ambient temperature sensor to -5C when real 20C outside and the ICE did not kicked in at all.
It is not the ambient temperature sensor that start the engine or at least it is not only that sensor responsible.

 

[kpetrov]

It is hardly a flawed. design - It will run the ICE at temperatures below 10º C for the first few kms to get the oil somewhat warmed up to prepare for the full-power ICE starts that it may have to make during driving. That it warms the cabin is a welcome secondary function. The only other way to prevent it starting is to set the interior temperature to minimum (15ºC) before switching off and leaving it there whilst driving the next day.

Let's elaborate on a hardly flawed design...
Jaapv can you comment the chart below?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the PHEV but wen the engine management is worst than same generation ICE vehicles that stops the engines on traffic lights and when parked can't really admire that design.

Done few more test and heating the internal temp. sensor and adding an parallel resistor to it doesn't help. The ICE starts like on the graphic.

BTW I have the solution how to stop the ICE when cold but need a little bit more time for refinement and connectors to arrive and will post.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Regular cars will only stop the ICE when stationary once it is warmed up - until then they continue to run the ICE till it is warm. The PHEV does the same. If you press the accelerator hard enough that the PHEV decides you want extra power, it fires up the ICE to provide that power. Once running, like a regular ICE, it runs the engine to warm it up so that it won't be starting from stone cold when you next want extra power.

So it looks like it was purely your heavy right foot that forced the ICE to start in this case, and then the PHEV's software ran the ICE just like any other car to prevent wear when you decided to accelerate hard again. Doesn't sound like a flawed design to me

 

[greendwarf]

Not sure I'm with jaapv that this is purely to protect a cold engine - otherwise why would you be able get round it by setting the temp to minimum. Now that would be a design flaw. Surely the primary concern of the software is to maximise battery range by starting the engine for heating unless you make it clear you want a brass monkey environment.

 

[kpetrov]

greendwarf,
Remember I'm doing all those experiments with heating completely turned off.

ThudnBlundr,
I was also tempted to blame it on my heavy foot but like you see on the graph the ICE kicked in only on the third acceleration which is smaller than the first two. Only after the ICE kicked in I was heavier on the acceleration. Can't argue that the ICE starts always in the process of acceleration though.
Will post more charts with acceleration to demonstrate it.
BTW by your logic (which is not wrong) why is the ICE not staring from the beginning?
I totally understand the reasoning behind cold ICE startups but more control would have been great. No need of sudden power on short trips to the store.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

But the PHEV has no idea when you set off if you're doing a 3-mile or a 300-mile trip, so they have to program it for the worst case. Also I find on mine that it doesn't only monitor throttle position, but also how quickly you press it. So even if you reach the same position (and acceleration), pressing the pedal quickly can fire up the ICE whereas more slowly doesn't. But in the end we're having to guess what parameters the programmers decided to monitor and then try to guess why they did it.

 

[user 3575]

On our 2020 they no longer fit the heated windscreen, if we chose to stop the ICE firing up when cold, we simply switch the heater off after the last journey, when we start up press the ECO button heating set at 20 degrees C and sometimes we have to press EV mode, the lowest temperature we have seen this winter is 0 degrees C, we are still in that steep learning curve.

However, the issue with the ICE starting up from cold, (a) if I switch the heating to OFF I cannot preheat the PHEV off the mains, and (b) with the ICE running and the heating ON I get less depleting of my battery range and (c) It heats up a lot quicker with the ICE running, to honest it is only a small amount of fuel.