Mythbusting and the facts known about the Outlander Phev.

[Trex]

I'm in awe as to how much clever engineering has gone into that vehicle.

I would like to heartily second this remark.

Looking at the systems integration and user interface of this vehicle, I am constantly amazed at the level of thought that has gone in to it.

I'd love to get my hands on the "Use Cases" that were developed in relation to this car. (or the equivalent in their MechEng development process)

They've taken a really complex set of things, and turned it into something that a numpty can just jump into and drive. Without having to manage the battery, motors etc.

I'd love to meet the design team.

Yes I have said something like this previously. But I would think we would need a translator to speak to them.
Or maybe sign language. :idea: Just a big thumbs up to them may suffice.

 

[AndyInOz]

Or a nice, long, low, bow.

 

[Trex]

Or a nice, long, low, bow.

Yes. Perfect.
:lol:

 

[greendwarf]

They've taken a really complex set of things, and turned it into something that a numpty can just jump into and drive. Without having to manage the battery, motors etc.

Apparently not judging by some recent posts. :lol:

 

[Grigou]

I'm in awe as to how much clever engineering has gone into that vehicle.

I would like to heartily second this remark.

Looking at the systems integration and user interface of this vehicle, I am constantly amazed at the level of thought that has gone in to it.

I'd love to get my hands on the "Use Cases" that were developed in relation to this car. (or the equivalent in their MechEng development process)

They've taken a really complex set of things, and turned it into something that a numpty can just jump into and drive. Without having to manage the battery, motors etc.

I'd love to meet the design team.

Yes I have said something like this previously. But I would think we would need a translator to speak to them.
Or maybe sign language. :idea: Just a big thumbs up to them may suffice.

I'd love to meet the MMCS's design team, too.

Of course, sign language could be necessary, but it's not my thumb that I would show them :lol:

 

[anko]

May I suggest you change

2. It does not have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) at the moment.

into:

2a. Whether it has a continuously variable transmission (CVT), we do not know. And we do not care. As it is a matter of interpretation of what "CVT" stands for.
2b. It DOES provide a continuously variable transmission (CVT) effect.
2c. It DOES NOT have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) gearbox.

 

[HHL]

I'm in awe as to how much clever engineering has gone into that vehicle.

I would like to heartily second this remark.

Looking at the systems integration and user interface of this vehicle, I am constantly amazed at the level of thought that has gone in to it.

I'd love to get my hands on the "Use Cases" that were developed in relation to this car. (or the equivalent in their MechEng development process)

They've taken a really complex set of things, and turned it into something that a numpty can just jump into and drive. Without having to manage the battery, motors etc.

I'd love to meet the design team.

And, most importantly, they still didn't manage to please everyone :roll:

 

[EssexBoy]

May I suggest you change

2. It does not have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) at the moment.

into:

2a. Whether it has a continuously variable transmission (CVT), we do not know. And we do not care. As it is a matter of interpretation of what "CVT" stands for.
2b. It DOES provide a continuously variable transmission (CVT) effect.
2c. It DOES NOT have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) gearbox.

Point of order - we know what CVT stands for, we just don't know what it means :twisted:

 

[Trex]

May I suggest you change

2. It does not have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) at the moment.

into:

2a. Whether it has a continuously variable transmission (CVT), we do not know. And we do not care. As it is a matter of interpretation of what "CVT" stands for.
2b. It DOES provide a continuously variable transmission (CVT) effect.
2c. It DOES NOT have a continuously variable transmission (CVT) gearbox.

Sorry. Where is the mechanical transmission that can change seamlessly through a continuous range of effective gear ratios.
Its not on my Phev.

If diesel-electric or in our case petrol-electric transmission has ever been defined as a CVT transmission I have never seen it.
Mechanical in the above definition seems to put that to bed.

Do we want start redefining standard definitions?

That is IMO a big call.

 

[Claymore]

Sherlock Holmes (respect!) supposedly said "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

Let us question a few elements of the PHEV transmission using (very) simple logic.

1. Imagine there was no ICE. Just one battery and the electric motors in their known format. Is the ratio between the rpm of the motors and the rpm of the driven wheels always constant?

2. Imagine there were no electric motors or generator...only the ICE in it's known form and with it's existing link only to the front wheels. Would the ratio of rpm in the motor to the front wheels always remain constant (ignoring the moments when the clutch might operate)?

If the answers to each of the above is yes there is no CVT.

Beyond the above Mitsu might have installed a secondary battery that could be drawn upon when high power was required for overtaking or the like. That would make no difference to the simple logic above.

Instead of a secondary battery we have a generator powered by the ICE. That can charge the main battery without providing any traction or provide traction and charge the battery within certain limits (say less than 75% of it's deliverable power being required for actual traction) and of course within all of the possible variables of those parameters the ICE has a mind of it's own as what rpm it might use to achieve what is being asked of it at any given time.

However, the ICE powering the generator is simply replacing the hypothetical secondary battery mentioned previously and plays no part whatsoever in the transmission of the vehicle.

Any residual power going to the front wheels will be subject to the consideration in 2. above.

The logical conclusion would therefore have to be that if the answer to the first two questions is 'yes'.....there is no CVT

The inclusion of an electricity charging facility is very useful but irrelevant in terms of considering the description of the PHEV's transmission.

There is NO CVT

JimB

EDITED: Down to 2 questions.

 

[user 816]

And there is no CVT like effect either, the linear power of the PHEV is one of its most enjoyable and enlightening experiences.

Unless someone goes so far as to liken the ICE coming online to boost speed akin to changing down a gear. but I would more liken it to a turbo spooling up and offering a boost, so again not even a virtual CVT effect can be claimed.

 

[anko]

And there is no CVT like effect either, the linear power of the PHEV is one of its most enjoyable and enlightening experiences.

Unless someone goes so far as to liken the ICE coming online to boost speed akin to changing down a gear. but I would more liken it to a turbo spooling up and offering a boost, so again not even a virtual CVT effect can be claimed.

Taking the fight to the next level, aren't you? :mrgreen:

I would think one of the advantages of conventional CVT's is exactly that 'linear' experience (although a lot noisier). But it doesn't matter, as "CVT" does not say anything about how power develops. It only says that the ratio between engine RPM and wheel RPM (road speed) is variable, not in just a few steps, like with a normal gearbox, but in an infinitive number of infinitively small steps. You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

 

[maby]

And there is no CVT like effect either, the linear power of the PHEV is one of its most enjoyable and enlightening experiences.

Unless someone goes so far as to liken the ICE coming online to boost speed akin to changing down a gear. but I would more liken it to a turbo spooling up and offering a boost, so again not even a virtual CVT effect can be claimed.

Taking the fight to the next level, aren't you? :mrgreen:

I would think one of the advantages of conventional CVT's is exactly that 'linear' experience (although a lot noisier). But it doesn't matter, as "CVT" does not say anything about how power develops. It only says that the ratio between engine RPM and wheel RPM (road speed) is variable, not in just a few steps, like with a normal gearbox, but in an infinitive number of infinitively small steps. You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

I go offline for 12 hours and wake up in a parallel universe!

 

[user 816]

And there is no CVT like effect either, the linear power of the PHEV is one of its most enjoyable and enlightening experiences.

Unless someone goes so far as to liken the ICE coming online to boost speed akin to changing down a gear. but I would more liken it to a turbo spooling up and offering a boost, so again not even a virtual CVT effect can be claimed.

Taking the fight to the next level, aren't you? :mrgreen:

I would think one of the advantages of conventional CVT's is exactly that 'linear' experience (although a lot noisier). But it doesn't matter, as "CVT" does not say anything about how power develops. It only says that the ratio between engine RPM and wheel RPM (road speed) is variable, not in just a few steps, like with a normal gearbox, but in an infinitive number of infinitively small steps. You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

But most modern CVT's and many older ones simulated a normal gearbox by moving between set ratio points and locking up there when possible to prevent constant engine rev hunting as the engine and gearbox fight it out. The CVT is just another technical means to an end of a fixed ratio box. A hybrid is different in that unless in parallel or ICE driving mode the engine is a generator responding to electrical demand and not necessarily just propulsion demand.

 

[Claymore]

..........You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

Anko, with the level of knowledge and experience you have of the car I assume you've said that to bait idiots like me...it worked

In serial mode the engine is disengaged from the wheels so whether its rpm changes when you play with the throttle doesn't pass the 'so what' test surely?

JimB

 

[maby]

...

But most modern CVT's and many older ones simulated a normal gearbox by moving between set ratio points and locking up there when possible to prevent constant engine rev hunting as the engine and gearbox fight it out. The CVT is just another technical means to an end of a fixed ratio box. A hybrid is different in that unless in parallel in ICE driving mode the engine is a generator responding to electrical demand and not necessarily just propulsion demand.

I hoovered my house this morning - except that the machine that I used had a label saying "Vax" on the front. It was clearly not a vacuum cleaner since they have dust bags and filters in them, don't they? This has a plastic cylinder and a mechanism to make the air go round in circles (rather like this thread!). Actually, given that it had no dust bag, but relied on a vortex, it must have been a Dyson despite that Vax label, mustn't it?

Internal Combustion Engines have pistons in cylinders, valves and conrods, don't they? So my friend with a Mazda is desperately looking for the correct name for the thing under his bonnet.

It's just so easy to confuse the function, the brand and the implementation when, for a long time they are synonymous, isn't it?

 

[maby]

..........You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

Anko, with the level of knowledge and experience you have of the car I assume you've said that to bait idiots like me...it worked

In serial mode the engine is disengaged from the wheels so whether its rpm changes when you play with the throttle doesn't pass the 'so what' test surely?

JimB

If the engine was connected to a pump that was circulating hydraulic fluid to a servo on the wheels would you say that it was disengaged from the wheels? In my Landcruiser with a conventional torque converter, the engine is coupled to an impeller that is dragging another impeller attached to the gearbox round - no mechanical linkage - is that disengaged from the wheels? Why can't you see that the combination of a generator and electric motor is just another power coupling mechanism?

 

[Claymore]

....If the engine was connected to a pump that was circulating hydraulic fluid to a servo on the wheels would you say that it was disengaged from the wheels? In my Landcruiser with a conventional torque converter, the engine is coupled to an impeller that is dragging another impeller attached to the gearbox round - no mechanical linkage - is that disengaged from the wheels? Why can't you see that the combination of a generator and electric motor is just another power coupling mechanism?

I'm laughing now saying that it must be really depressing faced with idiots like me....I promise to desist after this last analogy (Neverfuel should hide 'cos it's another aviation one although not mentioning CSUs and definitely not tarring or feathering :? ).

More 'imagineering'....we're in our Vulcan on a long distance mission and eventually we need more motion lotion so we formate with the tanker and take on fuel to replenish our supply.

The fuel flowing from the tanker will allow us extended range or indeed to increase fuel flow rate by adding power to climb or to increase speed.

To my mind that is no different from the role of the ICE in the PHEV adding 'fuel' to the drive battery.

I couldn't describe the aviation refuelling as an example of a CVT therefore again, in my mind the PHEV one fails too.

Fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

The really depressing thing is that I can't even sit down to read the papers without looking at this thread to what's been posted! Fat chance of me keeping my promise to post no more, but I'll try.

JimB

 

[maby]

....If the engine was connected to a pump that was circulating hydraulic fluid to a servo on the wheels would you say that it was disengaged from the wheels? In my Landcruiser with a conventional torque converter, the engine is coupled to an impeller that is dragging another impeller attached to the gearbox round - no mechanical linkage - is that disengaged from the wheels? Why can't you see that the combination of a generator and electric motor is just another power coupling mechanism?

I'm laughing now saying that it must be really depressing faced with idiots like me....I promise to desist after this last analogy (Neverfuel should hide 'cos it's another aviation one although not mentioning CSUs and definitely not tarring or feathering :? ).

More 'imagineering'....we're in our Vulcan on a long distance mission and eventually we need more motion lotion so we formate with the tanker and take on fuel to replenish our supply.

The fuel flowing from the tanker will allow us extended range or indeed to increase fuel flow rate by adding power to climb or to increase speed.

To my mind that is no different from the role of the ICE in the PHEV adding 'fuel' to the drive battery.

I couldn't describe the aviation refuelling as an example of a CVT therefore again, in my mind the PHEV one fails too.

Fortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

The really depressing thing is that I can't even sit down to read the papers without looking at this thread to what's been posted! Fat chance of me keeping my promise to post no more, but I'll try.

JimB

Well, my post that you were replying to was not particularly commenting on whether or not the PHEV has a CVT, more replying to your assertion that "In serial mode the engine is disengaged from the wheels so whether its rpm changes when you play with the throttle doesn't pass the 'so what' test surely?"

There seems to be this belief in several of our contributors here that a CVT simply has to be mechanical. The PHEV in serial mode has no mechanical link between the engine and the road wheels and hence it cannot possibly have a CVT - that is just plain stupid! It is no different to saying that an internal combustion engine has pistons and cylinders and hence the rotary engine in a Mazda is not internal combustion. Until recently, all cars with a CVT had a mechanical coupling between the engine and the wheels - but that is simply because nobody had worked out how to build a CVT that didn't have a mechanical coupling. Until recently, all vacuum cleaners relied on bags and filters - is a Dyson not a vacuum cleaner?

 

[Grigou]

t only says that the ratio between engine RPM and wheel RPM (road speed) is variable, not in just a few steps, like with a normal gearbox, but in an infinitive number of infinitively small steps. You must have noticed that, in serial hybrid mode, when you play with the throttle, engine RPM varies much more than road speed? Like with a conventional CVT?

Haha, Christiaan Huygens was Dutch, wasn't he ? He didn't believe in infinitesimal calculus until the end of his life :lol:

Times, there are changin'