Outlander PHEV Single Motor Drive? - Mike Mas

[LowOnCash]

Hello Guys - Regretfully there is no such thing as a single motor powering our Outlander unless something is broke. I know there is a lot of conversation regarding Eco mode using only one motor, but the truth of the matter, there is no such thing as a single motor powering our Outlander for added economy.

On a two motor system like the Outlander where both motors are coupled to the wheels, if only one motor was powering the the EV, the other motor would drag behind resulting in even worse range then using both motors.
Even though the second non-working motor is not helping to propel the car, it would still require sufficient power to prevent it from lagging behind because the tires are still turning the motor. Therefore, the lost power needed to prevent it dragging, plus inverter and motor losses would negate the use. 

To avoid all these losses, what the Outlander really needs is a motor disengagement clutch to totally disengage the rear motor when not needed. This would make good sense, since possibly  98% of the time, we have no use to for both motors. Equipping the Outlander with a motor clutch would make a substantial difference in range.

Hyundai recently equipped their AWD Iconiq 5 & 6 with a “Disconnect Actuator System” (DAS), a motor disengagement clutch to free the motor from the wheels, the result is a 6-8 % increase in range. Should this hold true for the Outlander, instead of up to 50 miles of range, we could see range increase to 55-58 miles.

Therefore my wish list for Mitsubishi for the 2024 Outlander is to incorporate a motor clutch system, then reduce tire size to 18 or 19 inches for additional range and a smoother and quieter ride.

If they did, we could see possibly 65-70 miles of range on one charge. 


Regards - Mike

 

[Lon12]

Personally I like the fact that it is all wheel drive all the time. My tire wear is nice and even. With the Tesla it is rear wheel drive most of the time so I have to rotate tires more often. Although Tesla fun-power is probably more of a factor lol.
It's not an EV. A five or six percent increase in range really wouldn't affect my daily driving. If I need more range I can always start the ICE.
Is there any history on the reliability of the Hyundai motor disengage mechanism?

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply - as I mentioned 98% of the time, all wheel drive is just wasting battery power and wearing drive-line components for no reason. There are big mechanical losses in the tran-axle, inverter and motor than can be avoided.

All wheel drive serves no purpose at all unless your driving bad weather. Possible 90% of all passenger cars are two wheel driven. I've driven 4 wheel drive trucks and Jeeps all my life, no one would think of keeping 4 wheel drive engaged. In addition, any time an axle is used for traction there is increased tire wear.

I totally disagree the Outlander is not an EV, not until the gas engine starts, is there any difference than a regular EV like an EV6 or others. One of the main advantages of the Outlander is unlike most PHEV's who drive the electric motor through an multi speed transmission with mechanical losses, the Outlander is a pure electric motor driven vehicle no different than a Tesla or EV6. In fact the main reason I bought my Outlander was the fact is is a real EV like my other electric cars.

Finally, one of Outlander's biggest assets is its amazing range for a SUV. Range means everything to an electric car and even more for a PHEV since its more limited in a hybrid. You might be the only owner who could care less about gaining an extra 8 miles, kicking range up close to 60 miles.

Regards - Mike

 

[kpetrov]

...

Like you have said "Outlander is unlike most PHEV's who drive the electric motor through an multi speed transmission with mechanical losses, the Outlander is a pure electric motor driven vehicle no different than a Tesla or EV6"
Since there is no losses in complex transmission then the 6% to 8% gain in range is just a wishful thinking for our vehicles.

Moreover why you think that the motor drag is so significant!? how are you coasting on B0?

Like we see bellow when in parallel mode the front motor is not working and minimal power is supplied to prevent parasitic current and dragging.
2% transmission losses only.

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply - However you must have misunderstood my last post, I never said there were “no losses” in a multi-speed transmission, I said there "were" losses.

There are numerous losses on a conventional PHEV which incorporates the electric motor in the bell housing which depends on the a 6-8 speed transmission and a mechanical drive shaft and differential to apply power to the road, compared to the "low-loss single speed trans-axle" doing the same job. The beauty of the Outlander is the fact it is a Pure Electric EV, using two electric motors coupled directly to the drive axles like a Tesla, BMW I4, EV6, etc.

A good example to help understand the advantages of a single axle EV compared a dual axle drive EV is a Kia EV6. The RWD single motor model using a 78 kw pack achieves up to 325 miles of range. The same exact car using the same 78 kw pack in an AWD version, struggles to achieve 250 miles. Therefore the losses of having two motors rather than one costs the owner a massive 75 miles of range. This clearly shows the advantage of an Outlander operating on one motor. By the way our family has both EV6's so I speak from personal experience.

It's also important to understand there is no such thing as coasting with the Outlander. Even in B0 there is small amounts power and or regen happening in both motors. An OBD scanner easily shows this to be true. Secondly, if you were to coast with one or two motors, both motors would have to be low-powered to prevent dragging and uncontrolled magnetic fields within the motor itself. For this same reason, when the Outlander in parallel mode where the engine is powering the front axle directly, we still have to apply low power to the front motor to prevent dragging.

Keep in mind is not just the drag of the motor to consider - there are other losses from the inverter, mechanical drag from the motors bearings, trans-axle gears and bearings, etc, etc, for this reason using one instead of two motors makes a major difference.

Regards - Mike

 

[kpetrov]

Thanks for the reply - However you must have misunderstood my last post, I never said there were “no losses” in a multi-speed transmission, I said there "were" losses.

...

A good example to help understand the advantages of a single axle EV compared a dual axle drive EV is a Kia EV6. The RWD single motor model using a 78 kw pack achieves up to 325 miles of range. The same exact car using the same 78 kw pack in an AWD version, struggles to achieve 250 miles. Therefore the losses of having two motors rather than one costs the owner a massive 75 miles of range. This clearly shows the advantage of an Outlander operating on one motor. By the way our family has both EV6's so I speak from personal experience.

It's also important to understand there is no such thing as coasting with the Outlander. Even in B0 there is small amounts power and or regen happening in both motors. An OBD scanner easily shows this to be true. Secondly, if you were to coast with one or two motors, both motors would have to be low-powered to prevent dragging and uncontrolled magnetic fields within the motor itself. For this same reason, when the Outlander in parallel mode where the engine is powering the front axle directly, we still have to apply low power to the front motor to prevent dragging.

Keep in mind is not just the drag of the motor to consider - there are other losses from the inverter, mechanical drag from the motors bearings, trans-axle gears and bearings, etc, etc, for this reason using one instead of two motors makes a major difference.

Regards - Mike

I have said there is no so much loses since there isn't a complex transmission.

Regarding single or twin motor KIA EV6 consumption...

Every single-motor EV6 has a combined EPA rating of up to 117 MPGe; the dual-motor variant is rated at 109 MPGe
For more information on the EV6's fuel economy, visit the EPA website.

But will twin motor shut off system bring all losses on that axle to 0... no of course. You are going to save the friction from that motor bearings and the power needed to prevent the drag.
To decouple that motor is not the same as it is not there. There still be an differential and so on.

So it's a few percent and reduced reliability...

 

[Lon12]

Thanks for the reply - as I mentioned 98% of the time, all wheel drive is just wasting battery power and wearing drive-line components for no reason. There are big mechanical losses in the tran-axle, inverter and motor than can be avoided.

All wheel drive serves no purpose at all unless your driving bad weather. Possible 90% of all passenger cars are two wheel driven. I've driven 4 wheel drive trucks and Jeeps all my life, no one would think of keeping 4 wheel drive engaged. In addition, any time an axle is used for traction there is increased tire wear.

I totally disagree the Outlander is not an EV, not until the gas engine starts, is there any difference than a regular EV like an EV6 or others. One of the main advantages of the Outlander is unlike most PHEV's who drive the electric motor through an multi speed transmission with mechanical losses, the Outlander is a pure electric motor driven vehicle no different than a Tesla or EV6. In fact the main reason I bought my Outlander was the fact is is a real EV like my other electric cars.

Finally, one of Outlander's biggest assets is its amazing range for a SUV. Range means everything to an electric car and even more for a PHEV since its more limited in a hybrid. You might be the only owner who could care less about gaining an extra 8 miles, kicking range up close to 60 miles.

Regards - Mike

I didn't say I couldn't care less. Simply said the current EV range is more than enough for my daily driving. Semantics about it not being an EV. Range is critical for a BEV and an extra 8 miles could mean making it to a plug. Nothing like that to worry about with a PHEV.
There are also times when the engine is linked with a clutch directly to the front wheels. No electric motors being used. Seems to happen mostly when the battery is close to empty.
Please don't think I'm arguing that the Hyundai motor disengagement isn't a great feature. One of the reasons I've owned so many EVs is to experience the great innovations we are seeing with every new model.

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the replies - My apologies guys, if I read your reply incorrect.

Well 8 miles would golden for those who work further than 19 miles from home! LOL The motor clutch is just a wish list item, but it could be implemented using the same Outlander drive train and motors. It’s not a simple as just adding a motor clutch, it would also require complex logic since the only time the motor could disengage is once the car reached its desired speed or when the gas engine was coupled to the drive axle and powering the car. The motor would need to be reengaged for acceleration or during regen. Kia uses this disconnect with great success in this manner. Instead of Kia clutching the motor itself, they instead use a clutch on just one of the drive axles. I included an image below.

Getting back to the Outlander range, while 8 miles might not seem like much range increase, it’s really a major gain when you consider most all PHEV's struggle to achieve 30 miles. Here's a few PHEV stats:

Mini Countryman 17 miles
Dodge Hornet 30 miles
Hyundai Tucson 33 miles
Kia Sorento 32 miles
Kia Sportage 34 miles
Ford Escape 36 miles
Hyundai Santa Fe 30 miles
Mini Cooper 17 miles
BMW 530e 21 Miles
Rav4 PHEP 42 miles

While the RAV4 PHEV is placed at the top of the list regarding range by Gov standards, I strongly feel the Outlander was short-changed on their range tests since most owners are achieving more range than the RAV4.
Regardless, the Outlander vehicle itself is miles ahead in design, comfort and more importantly in its AWD system, the RAV4 rear axle uses a tiny motor compared to the Outlander. I'm not in any way trying to de-value the RAV4, it's an efficent PHEV and it’s engine drive and trans-axle is the most unique and efficient in the industry.

Regards - Mike

 

[LowOnCash]

Here's so additional information I found on the disconnect system . . .

The first EV AWD disconnector system worldwide

- Mileage enhanced with 6%–8% increase in efficiency

- E-GMP system applied to new IONIQ 5 releases

- The first step in the evolution from internal combustion to electric power engines

The leader of future mobility technology, HYUNDAI TRANSYS has successfully developed the first electric vehicle (EV) all-wheel drive (AWD) disconnector system in the world, entering mass production starting last month.

The EV AWD disconnector system is a device attached to the EV system’s reducer, disconnecting or connecting motors and drive shafts according to the environment.

This allows the vehicle to disconnect the secondary axle from AWD in unnecessary circumstances, such as in snow or rough terrain, and transition the system to 2WD to enhance the vehicle’s energy efficiency.

As such, this innovative system reduces energy waste and enhances efficiency by 6%–8%,

as well as improves product efficacy through more economical use of space.

HYUNDAI TRANSYS boasts an excellent track record in R&D with several developments, such as its reducer system with excellent noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) and durability.

The successful development of the EV AWD disconnector system is the first step in the company’s evolution from the internal combustion age to the EV era.

While AWD disconnectors for internal combustion engines are available in the market, HYUNDAI TRANSYS is the first to develop the technology for EV use.

A HYUNDAI TRANSYS representative explained that because of differences in propulsion methods, EV disconnectors must consider significant challenges in development, such as noise and transfer shock not found in internal combustion engines.

Another complicating factor was the relative simplicity of EV reducers compared to their equivalents in internal combustion engines, making it conversely more difficult to enhance the system’s efficiency.

HYUNDAI TRANSYS established its expertise by studying reducer systems employed in various mobility systems outside of internal combustion engines, such as tanks and high-speed trains.

This technological expertise formed the basis of its triumph, helping it develop significant improvements, such as noise generation removal and continued improvements in durability.

“Our new disconnector system is the core technology that allows us to enhance the most important metric for EV customers, which is range, and guarantee the vehicle’s performance at the same time,” a member of the EV reducer R&D team commented. “Our technological expertise allowed us to establish this new edge for the company through a specialized EV reducer system unique to TRANSYS and TRANSYS only.”

HYUNDAI TRANSYS’s EV AWD disconnector system will be used in Hyundai Motor Company’s dedicated EV platform E-GMP and applied to the Hyundai IONIQ 5 product line for the first time.

The company plans to expand the system’s application to other product lines in its bid to establish dominance in the global EV market.

 

[nrayanov]

Not a massive fan of Hyundai and Kia and their pricing, nor their small turbo engines on their hybrids.

I like my vehicles to be all-time AWD.

As for the so-called losses... just use B0.

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply - That's not what I'm hearing Hyundai and Kia gas cars are untouchable for the money and quality. The gas powered Telluride and Palisade SUV's put them on top of all their competitors. The Hyundai Motor Group GMP electric chassis is built from the ground up as an electric car with an 800 volt architecture that no one can touch. 10-80% charge in 18 minutes. Right now the Iconiq 5-6 and EV6 are hands down the best and most efficient electric cars on the road, surpassing Tesla, BMW, Volvo and even the Benz EQS. at 1/3 or 1/2 less money.

I pre-ordered a BMW I4 over a year ago, and when it finally arrived, I only kept the car 35 days and traded it for a second EV6. The I-4 is a totally joke and nothing like the technology of the I3. Instead of building the I4 from the ground up like they said they would, they instead just ripped out the gas engine out of the BMW 4 series and stuffed all electric components under the hood. It absolutely horrible in every respect, comfort, range, interior room, ride and noisy as hell.

One picture is worth a thousand words - look at the crap jammed in under the I-4 hood, a total nightmare. There is so many hoses and couplings and after-market crap to make it work there's not even space for storage.

Regards - Mike

 

[Rockwallrick]

That looks a lot like the MachE after you remove the Frunk! We sold ours mainly because of lack of confidence in the US charging infrastructure and some long road trips we had planned for this year. Completed a 3200 mile road trip in the Outlander last month mostly burning gas but was able to charge at a couple hotels we stayed at. Should have listened to my Wife when she told me that our country is NOT ready for electric cars yet!! If I could have a do over would have gone straight from HEV to PHEV!!

 

[LowOnCash]

That looks a lot like the MachE after you remove the Frunk! We sold ours mainly because of lack of confidence in the US charging infrastructure and some long road trips we had planned for this year. Completed a 3200 mile road trip in the Outlander last month mostly burning gas but was able to charge at a couple hotels we stayed at. Should have listened to my Wife when she told me that our country is NOT ready for electric cars yet!! If I could have a do over would have gone straight from HEV to PHEV!!

LOL she's right there is no network in most rural locations - I live 100 miles north of Atlanta so my EV6 is happy going there and back with over 125+ to spare. The Outlander is reserved for daily chores and for long distance traveling.

Like I always said - the only safe place to charge is at your home!

Mike

 

[littlescrote]

You're assuming that there are no Intellectual Property issues in using such a system - there may well be. You would think an electrically heated front windscreen would have been common for along time, but Ford held the IP to it and kept the competitive advantage of having it as feature in their vehicles.

 

[LowOnCash]

You're assuming that there are no Intellectual Property issues in using such a system - there may well be. You would think an electrically heated front windscreen would have been common for along time, but Ford held the IP to it and kept the competitive advantage of having it as feature in their vehicles.

Thanks for the reply - You're right there are many new EV developments such as the new released Solid State batteries which provide 600 miles of range, the Kia motor clutch or Tesla's new Heat pump which creates it's own heat in sub zero weather. It's happening fast!

Mike

 

[littlescrote]

or Tesla's new Heat pump which creates it's own heat in sub zero weather. It's happening fast!

Mike

Firstly, heat pumps do not create heat - they move it. That's why the efficiency can be in the 500% range, rather than any electrical heater which can only ever hope to reach 100%

Secondly, there is nothing new or special about Tesla's heat pump. Heat pumps have been around for well over 100 years. They are relatively new to mass market in the vehicle world, but have been investigated as far back at least as the late 90's when I worked in the automotive HAVC sector, as they are just Air Conditioning with a couple of changes to be reversible - to either move heat out of the cabin, or to move heat into the cabin. They were never required for ICE vehicles due to the abundance of waste heat from the ICE, but are now finding favour in BEVs and PHEVs due to the increased range that they offer vs resistive electric heating. Be aware though that they have limitations around what temperature they will work at depending on the refrigerant used. We already see reports of North American 2023 PHEV owners being without heat pump use in winter and still needing the ICE to fire for cabin heating. So they don't even get cabin heating whilst plugged in. A backward step to many, and the inclusion of a resistive heater AND a heat pump would be a better option for many wishing to stick to EV mode for short winter journeys.

 

[LowOnCash]

or Tesla's new Heat pump which creates it's own heat in sub zero weather. It's happening fast!

Mike

Firstly, heat pumps do not create heat - they move it. That's why the efficiency can be in the 500% range, rather than any electrical heater which can only ever hope to reach 100%

Secondly, there is nothing new or special about Tesla's heat pump. Heat pumps have been around for well over 100 years. They are relatively new to mass market in the vehicle world, but have been investigated as far back at least as the late 90's when I worked in the automotive HAVC sector, as they are just Air Conditioning with a couple of changes to be reversible - to either move heat out of the cabin, or to move heat into the cabin. They were never required for ICE vehicles due to the abundance of waste heat from the ICE, but are now finding favour in BEVs and PHEVs due to the increased range that they offer vs resistive electric heating. Be aware though that they have limitations around what temperature they will work at depending on the refrigerant used. We already see reports of North American 2023 PHEV owners being without heat pump use in winter and still needing the ICE to fire for cabin heating. So they don't even get cabin heating whilst plugged in. A backward step to many, and the inclusion of a resistive heater AND a heat pump would be a better option for many wishing to stick to EV mode for short winter journeys.

Thanks for the reply - However my best advise is before you find fault in others comments, is to "Study Up" first!

Your statement of the Tesla heat pump not being able to create it's own heat is 100% wrong. In addition the Tesla heat pump was developed just a few years ago and replaces the PTC heater. The patent design of the Tesla heat pump works on different principles then a standard heat pump found in other EV's using waste heat. The new Tesla heat pump can create enough heat internally to warm the cabin and battery to 80 degrees F in sub zero weather with the car totally stationary and unplugged!

In fact even the heat pump in the 2023 Outlander creates it's own heat to a degree. Anytime a mechanical powered device compresses refrigerant, there is heat generated by the motor itself, but more importantly from compressing the refrigerant.

When I get some free time so you better understand the Tesla heat pump I'll explain how the system works.

Regards - Mike

 

[Lon12]

Picture is worth a thousand words..... just have a look at Professor John Kelly review the system:
https://youtu.be/Dujr3DRkpDU

 

[littlescrote]

Thanks for the reply - However my best advise is before you find fault in others comments, is to "Study Up" first!

Blah blah

When I get some free time so you better understand the Tesla heat pump I'll explain how the system works.

Regards - Mike

Having spent my working life in the industry as a professional engineer and now at the age of 50, I wouldn't bother trying to pass on any of your "expertise" on the matter. But if you want to explain it to yourself to understand how the primary function of a heat pump is to move heat, then go ahead.

 

[kpetrov]

"Special" Tesla patented heat pump create it's own heat!!!

The only beauty in Tesla's heat pump system is that collects residual heat from all possible sources in the car with it's complex refrigerant, cooling lines and heat exchangers.
It has good coefficient like most of the modern heat pumps out there but like I was schooled that coasting in B0 is not a real coasting and there are loses, so as collecting residue heat which is a loss as well.
So Tesla pump doesn't create, just collect ant transfer all heat losses.