Outlander PHEV Single Motor Drive? - Mike Mas

[mellobob]

When I first read these comments I did wonder if the "created heat" was from left over hot air from the majority owner of the company?

 

[LowOnCash]

"Special" Tesla patented heat pump create it's own heat!!!

The only beauty in Tesla's heat pump system is that collects residual heat from all possible sources in the car with it's complex refrigerant, cooling lines and heat exchangers.
It has good coefficient like most of the modern heat pumps out there but like I was schooled that coasting in B0 is not a real coasting and there are loses, so as collecting residue heat which is a loss as well.
So Tesla pump doesn't create, just collect ant transfer all heat losses.

Thanks for the reply - Your comment "So Tesla pump doesn't create, just collect ant transfer all heat losses" regretfully this statement is incorrect.

While the Tesla heat pump has the ability to collect waste heat, that is not the main feature of the patent Tesla design. The Tesla heat pump system can create heat within the heat pump itself without the aid of waste heat from other components as other EV heat pump systems do.

Keep in mind in order for you to collect “useful” waste heat, the car must be moving to generate heat within components. The Tesla system does not require the car to be moving to create heat.

The waste heat pump system yourself and Litttlscrote mentioned, is for the most part old news. The Kia / Hyundai Group developed the first scavenging test pump system in 2014 for Kona and Soul which scavenges heat from the electrical components.

The Tesla heat pump system can do something no other heat pump can, which is to create its own heat within the heat pump module itself even in sub zero weather. I witnessed documentation where in 12 degrees below zero F, ”unplugged“ with the car “Stationary", the Tesla heat pump not only warmed the battery, but warmed the cabin to an amazing 80 degrees F.

Without getting over technical on the Tesla system, since we’re veering off topic, it’s important to note when we use energy to create work in most cases it creates a form of heat. Therefore, the compressor motors windings creates heat. More importantly, compressing a refrigerant (thermal energy) to higher pressure creates massive heat since compression moves the molecules together causing them to move more rapidly creating heat. Finally, when you compress a refrigerant at a rate 4-5 times faster than a conventional heat pump, it creates massive heat from not only compression of the refrigerant, but from the motor and mechanical components of the scroll pump which are operating faster as well producing additional heat. While there are other factors involved in the Tesla heat pump system such as the re-circulation of refrigerant and other, the notes above pretty much describe why the Tesla Heat Pump System is efficient in creating its own heat.

Regards Mike

 

[tfv43]

There is no heat for free, and not even Tesla kan bend the laws of thermodynamics. If the heat pump is "making" heat and not moving heat its just converting electricity to heat.

Compressing refrigerant release heat, but as soon as the pressure is released the refrigerant will take the same amount of heat back. Refrigerant is only a carrier of heat.

No one can ignore the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[littlescrote]

It's so nice to read comments of other educated people

 

[kpetrov]

It's so nice to read comments of other educated people

Isn't it...

Thanks for the reply - Your comment "So Tesla pump doesn't create, just collect ant transfer all heat losses" regretfully this statement is incorrect.
...

Like already have been said, there is no free heat.
Creating it's own heat means using energy from the battery to do it and can be no more than 100% efficiency doing so.
In closed system compressing an gas to create it's own heat even to a thousands degree will need more energy than the gas can release after in the same system.
Moving heat energy from the ambient air and residual heat from the components can be done with much greater than 100% efficiency so it will be interesting what is so unique in Tesla's heat pump to create that heat.

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the replies - I totally agree there is no free heat we have to use energy to create work to gain heat.

In any case, there have been many conclusive tests comparing two identical Tesla models where one is using the stock PTC heater and the other Elon's heat pump. These tests reveled the PTC heater car consumed "Three" times the current to heat the car the same temperatures. This is big news for any EV owner driving an electric car in Winter.

However what troubles me is cost and longevity. The Tesla heat pump system with its many many parts and ultra high speed scroll pump must cost nearly hundred time more than two simple PTC heaters which are 100% efficient do the same job a bit slower and last forever.

For a company like Mitsubishi to implement a system like Teslas in our PHEV's, would drastically raise the price of the car making it less affordable. As an option, they could retain their present heat pump and add a "Needed" PTC heater for the battery and by adding a few extra cells, could obtain the additional range benefit without a special heat pump system.

Mike

 

[kpetrov]

Well even without Elon's heat pump but just a regular - modern one my heating bill at home is three times lower compared to when using a baseboards.
The deal is when one do not collect the residual heat with a complex system the heat pump becomes much less effective and the owners of the new 2023 PHEV living in cold climates can confirm it.

 

[LowOnCash]

Well even without Elon's heat pump but just a regular - modern one my heating bill at home is three times lower compared to when using a baseboards.
The deal is when one do not collect the residual heat with a complex system the heat pump becomes much less effective and the owners of the new 2023 PHEV living in cold climates can confirm it.

I agree, while the Tesla heat pump system is certainly unique, it comes at considerably higher cost than a PTC heater. We can’t overlook the fact the PTC heater requires no compressor, fans, coils, refrigerant, coolant, pumps and dozens of valves and sensors to generate heat. Most important the PTC heater is inexpensive, 100% efficient and lasts the lifetime of the car.

Mike

 

[littlescrote]

Most of the stuff needed for a heat pump is already in the vehicle for the A/C. The difference between heat pump hardware and A/C hardware will be in the 10s of dollars, not more. Again, you are showing a total lack of understanding on the subject.

IMO a heat pump with an additional electric heater is the best choice. Given that the hardware for both easily exists, I don't understand why that wasn't done.

 

[mellobob]

Most of the stuff needed for a heat pump is already in the vehicle for the A/C. The difference between heat pump hardware and A/C hardware will be in the 10s of dollars, not more. Again, you are showing a total lack of understanding on the subject.

IMO a heat pump with an additional electric heater is the best choice. Given that the hardware for both easily exists, I don't understand why that wasn't done.

I certainly have a heat pump in my '23. And resistance as well. Perhaps it's a regional thing?

 

[littlescrote]

It may be the case for all, I haven't researched it all. I've just read about people not being able to heat their cabins in cold weather as the heat pump doesn't work. That would seem strange if they had a resistive heater that could do it, especially whilst on charge. But then it would need software to control it - not a strong point of the Japanese.

 

[kpetrov]

Ha, ha look what I found:
Somebody is ready for a class-action...

Mitsubishi misleads Outlander PHEV Owners on Battery Heater Components

 

[STS134]

Hello Guys - Regretfully there is no such thing as a single motor powering our Outlander unless something is broke. I know there is a lot of conversation regarding Eco mode using only one motor, but the truth of the matter, there is no such thing as a single motor powering our Outlander for added economy.

On a two motor system like the Outlander where both motors are coupled to the wheels, if only one motor was powering the the EV, the other motor would drag behind resulting in even worse range then using both motors.
Even though the second non-working motor is not helping to propel the car, it would still require sufficient power to prevent it from lagging behind because the tires are still turning the motor. Therefore, the lost power needed to prevent it dragging, plus inverter and motor losses would negate the use.

To avoid all these losses, what the Outlander really needs is a motor disengagement clutch to totally disengage the rear motor when not needed. This would make good sense, since possibly 98% of the time, we have no use to for both motors. Equipping the Outlander with a motor clutch would make a substantial difference in range.

Hyundai recently equipped their AWD Iconiq 5 & 6 with a “Disconnect Actuator System” (DAS), a motor disengagement clutch to free the motor from the wheels, the result is a 6-8 % increase in range. Should this hold true for the Outlander, instead of up to 50 miles of range, we could see range increase to 55-58 miles.

Therefore my wish list for Mitsubishi for the 2024 Outlander is to incorporate a motor clutch system, then reduce tire size to 18 or 19 inches for additional range and a smoother and quieter ride.

If they did, we could see possibly 65-70 miles of range on one charge.


Regards - Mike

Well alternately, Mitsubishi could use an induction motor for one of the two axles like Tesla does. Tesla vehicles do not have a disconnect clutch, but use the internal permanent magnet synchronous reluctance motor most of the time, and the induction motor only when necessary. The IPMSynRM is more efficient, and so it used most of the time and is preferred, but when the car needs more power or one axle starts slipping, the induction motor is used to power the other axle. But unlike a motor with permanent magnets, there's no penalty for freewheeling an induction motor. No power to the stators = no magnetic field = no induced current in the rotor = no back EMF.