You are all thinking about a particular, now rather primitive, implementation of CVT dating back to DAF if I remember correctly. The fact remains that the term describes a function, not an implementation and, as technology advances there will be alternative ways of achieving the same, or a very similar, effect. In both the old DAF(?) transmissions and the modern hybrids, the engine speed and road speed are decoupled in a way that permits them to vary infinitely rather than stepwise as is the case with a fixed ratio, multi-speed gearbox.
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anko
Well-known member
Exactly: we all are. That is exactly my point. If we all are, why not adopt that as a definition? Prevents confusion.maby said:
Bilbo59
Well-known member
Right or wrong - for me - the detailed technical debate has diminished what was shaping up to be an interesting discussion on whether owners would purchase the car again.
Do you have to be either a business (tax) user, or an engineering enthusiast, to successfully (economically) own a EV or PHEV vehicle.
I wanted to take the plunge into hybrids many years ago, and have used spreadsheets to look at possible savings, and have had quite a few rides in many of the different cars. In fact I got so near deciding on either, an Outlander PHEV' or BMW i3 (we have 2 possible cars as possible replacements) last year that I had a universal 32amp charging point installed, then diesel price started falling rapidly and the sums no longer added up with so much conviction.
As I am an ordinary pensioner, only the car and the total cost worried me. Most cars were pleasant to drive, but I have yet to find an HEV, PHEV, or EV which was much different in cost to run (over a 6-10 year cycle) than my own LR Freelander 190 auto.
I note that most forum members quickly jump to tax savings in defence of their buying decision. Very few say that it had 'Showroom Appeal', will this eventually effect its long term value, and along with the battery life worries put up long term running costs.
Will second hand prices plummet (in UK) as BIK savings reduce, and Road Tax increases, or will they rise as the Buying Discount decreases, and the First Year Tax increases.
Please can we hear from some ordinary PHEV car users, on how much they like the Outlander PHEV, or not??
I wanted to take the plunge into hybrids many years ago, and have used spreadsheets to look at possible savings, and have had quite a few rides in many of the different cars. In fact I got so near deciding on either, an Outlander PHEV' or BMW i3 (we have 2 possible cars as possible replacements) last year that I had a universal 32amp charging point installed, then diesel price started falling rapidly and the sums no longer added up with so much conviction.
As I am an ordinary pensioner, only the car and the total cost worried me. Most cars were pleasant to drive, but I have yet to find an HEV, PHEV, or EV which was much different in cost to run (over a 6-10 year cycle) than my own LR Freelander 190 auto.
I note that most forum members quickly jump to tax savings in defence of their buying decision. Very few say that it had 'Showroom Appeal', will this eventually effect its long term value, and along with the battery life worries put up long term running costs.
Will second hand prices plummet (in UK) as BIK savings reduce, and Road Tax increases, or will they rise as the Buying Discount decreases, and the First Year Tax increases.
Please can we hear from some ordinary PHEV car users, on how much they like the Outlander PHEV, or not??
Well I'm as ordinary as they come and I love my PHEV. No tax benefits (I'm actually a nill tax rate person) but I appreciate its SUV capabilities for carrying two girls to school and here there and everywhere, plus clobber, through foul weather with sure footedness. I love its green credentials as I travel through town with zero emissions (plus its super quietness) and ultimately I love that I'm averaging nearly 50mpg, which given most of my driving is currently open road long distance, is very good.
The debate about CVT perplexes me. Single geared cars are manifestly different from continuously variable geared cars (Since people are being pedantic: "one of several possible arrangements of such parts in a mechanism, as an automobile transmission, for affording different relations of torque and speed between the driving and the driven machinery" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/geared), I think a distinction has to be made. I presume that benefits exist in single geared cars that do not exist in CVT cars, such as lower maintenance costs, and lower transmission noise.
As an analogy, imagine if someone ate Sorbet and loved it. It's dairy free, low in fat, etc, etc, but when they asked what it was, someone said it was "Ice Cream". In some situations, that lack of distinction is immaterial. If all they wanted was a cold, sweet treat, it makes no difference. But if the main reason they liked Sorbet was because it was dairy free, they're going to get a rude shock next time they ask for Ice Cream. Likewise, if the main reason why someone liked the smooth CVT experience was the lack of need to change gears, and no sudden RPM changes, then the distinction is immaterial. But if it's because they like the fact that it's maintenance free and doesn't whine, well, they may be disappointed if they buy a car with CVT expecting that experience.
As an analogy, imagine if someone ate Sorbet and loved it. It's dairy free, low in fat, etc, etc, but when they asked what it was, someone said it was "Ice Cream". In some situations, that lack of distinction is immaterial. If all they wanted was a cold, sweet treat, it makes no difference. But if the main reason they liked Sorbet was because it was dairy free, they're going to get a rude shock next time they ask for Ice Cream. Likewise, if the main reason why someone liked the smooth CVT experience was the lack of need to change gears, and no sudden RPM changes, then the distinction is immaterial. But if it's because they like the fact that it's maintenance free and doesn't whine, well, they may be disappointed if they buy a car with CVT expecting that experience.
ian4x4 said:
Cars are not purely economic decisions. There are lifestyle, aesthetic, ego and environmental considerations just to name a few.
I just did some maths in my head when I bought the Outlander, and figured the premium to go electric was not going to pay itself off in its life time. It didn't bother me in the least though, because the difference was negligible, and because I wanted to both have an environmental impact and I liked the silence of electric cars.
The car is not for everyone. It's well known that hybrid cars are the same or less economical on a long freeway drive as compared to a well designed car of the same class. Maby keeps pointing this out as if it was something new, or something most people wouldn't know before buying one. However, for the person with the right usage patterns, there is a lot of appeal. I am one of them. Almost all my driving is under 50km per day. If I went off peak electricity, I could get a full recharge for AUD90c, (GBP45p, USD60c).
Also, I believe that long term maintenance costs are going to be lower. My last car was a Mazda 6 MPS. Being 4WD, a heavy car and constantly driven in start-stop traffic (In one stretch of road, I recall engaging and disengaging the clutch 20 times in less than 1km), I was changing the clutch every 2 years. It was $2200AUD every time - That's using non-genuine parts and a cheap mechanic. That's a price I'll not ever have to pay again. Not to mention the timing chain was needing to be replaced. I was quoted $3k. As the petrol motor is almost never engaged, I suspect that part will never need to be replaced in this car. That's an extreme example of course, but I'm just pointing out that fuel is not the only calculation to be had.
But at the end of the day, I bought it because I liked how quiet it was, and felt I was doing something good for the planet.
Interesting discussion (well, mostly :lol: )
I bought my PHEV because I wanted to minimise the damage to the environment when I drive. My son has asthma...... You can't really put a price on that sort of thing. Of course we could have done without a car at all, but I felt that was a step too far - we need one car as we have three kids to ferry around. I knew most of my driving was within 10 miles of home for 95% of the time. I wasn't prepared to go totally EV as I don't think the infrastructure is in place yet. 'Phoebe' cost us nearly double what we had ever paid for a car before, and we are going to have to keep hold of it for a long time in order to justify such a big outlay... no BIK here
But I don't regret the purchase at all - sure it has a few niggles, but so does just about every car I've ever owned.
I bought my PHEV because I wanted to minimise the damage to the environment when I drive. My son has asthma...... You can't really put a price on that sort of thing. Of course we could have done without a car at all, but I felt that was a step too far - we need one car as we have three kids to ferry around. I knew most of my driving was within 10 miles of home for 95% of the time. I wasn't prepared to go totally EV as I don't think the infrastructure is in place yet. 'Phoebe' cost us nearly double what we had ever paid for a car before, and we are going to have to keep hold of it for a long time in order to justify such a big outlay... no BIK here
But I don't regret the purchase at all - sure it has a few niggles, but so does just about every car I've ever owned.
Regulo
Well-known member
Yep, here I am! Private buyer for my own personal, non-business use. I had a Volvo V70 diesel which, quite frankly, I hated. I can't put my finger on the exact cause, but it just seemed . . . a "nothing" car. Also it couldn't get better than 30 mpg, which is appalling in this day and age. So I was watching the telly and saw the "148" mpg ad. My eyes lit up, and I looked seriously at the ins and outs of getting one. I need a largish car for regular 200 mile trips with boaty gear, but the majority of my day-to-day drives are less than 30 miles, so the PHEV seemed a good choice. I've been well pleased with it, even during the winter when the EV range is rarely over 20 miles (I like my heat), it has returned a regular 55mpg. That drops to around 40 in the summer, when those 200 mile round trips kick in. It's quiet, reasonably comfortable, and suits me perfectly. There are areas that could be better, but that applies to many mainstream cars. So, overall, I'm happy with my car. In fact, I'm probably more content with this car than I've been with any of my previous ones. And I've had lots, from a DAF 55(fun) to a Rover SDI Vitesse(frightening)!ian4x4 said:
ian4x4 said:
I'm more than happy to jump in here...
I'm a private buyer. No tax benefits whatsoever. I love this car!
(feeling embarrassed because of Mistsubishi's "love that car" commercials)
I drive to work every day at the moment (lots of small injuries keeping me off the bicycle) and recharge the car at home twice per week (Sunday afternoon and Wednesday night).
I've had the "engine started to maintain fuel system" message twice since I bought the car, because I hardly ever use the petrol engine.
The heated seats are a godsend for person with a sore back (like me) and the interior is very nice.
Friends ask me to drive them places, because it's like being in a limo! (Especially with the "privacy glass" rear windows)
The in-car sound system (FM radio or MP3s - haven't tried playing CDs yet) sounds brilliant.
I had my last new car for 16 years, I'm imagining that this one will last 30.
If anything happened to this one, I'd immediately buy another one.
Andy
Sunder said:
That's exactly why I bought mine....and I do recharge at off-peak rates at 10.9c kW/h, which rarely costs more than a dollar.
If we all bought cars for purely economic decisions, we'd all be sitting in little Hyundai i20's or similar. This car is very comfy and works just as I hoped.
I just hope Mitsu get their marketing act together here in Australia and start selling a few more, lest it becomes a bit of an orphan like the Miev.....
greendwarf
Well-known member
ian4x4 said:
Like you I am a pensioner - although not ordinary as I am still working part-time.
Anyway, I was described, by the dealer, as the ideal user - mostly short city journeys on EV, including using the carrying capacity for trips to my log supplier, the "dump" etc. and general family removal/taxi work with no congestion charge, and free parking & electricity in Westminster. On the occasional trip outside London is works as a "normal" car able to cruise at motorway speeds before transforming back into a city car at the other end and the AWD etc. capability gave me the confidence to drive to the Alps last winter.
All cars are a compromise unless you can afford the cost & space of having more than one. This fits in with my needs perfectly and also my expectations.
gwatpe
Well-known member
quote="anko"]
Like it or not, most people will interpret "CVT" as a reference to a specific type of transmission (CV) that connects the engine to the wheels of a car.[/quote
The "CV" actually is an acronym for Constant Velocity, as opposed to a Universal joint that had been used to allow the drive wheels to be steerable. The younger generation would not be familiar with the steering shudder that was felt when cornering under power on a vehicle with Universal joints. Jeep used them on early Renegades. The "CV" joint eliminated this problem, and is used extensively since front wheel drive became popular.
And you accuse me of being literal :shock: :lol:maby said:jaapv said:Well, we like to get our facts and terms straight - it avoids confusion.tlongdon said:
In this case, at least, the term CVT is perfectly correct - it is a functional term and does not imply any particular implementation.
Like it or not, most people will interpret "CVT" as a reference to a specific type of transmission (CV) that connects the engine to the wheels of a car.[/quote
The "CV" actually is an acronym for Constant Velocity, as opposed to a Universal joint that had been used to allow the drive wheels to be steerable. The younger generation would not be familiar with the steering shudder that was felt when cornering under power on a vehicle with Universal joints. Jeep used them on early Renegades. The "CV" joint eliminated this problem, and is used extensively since front wheel drive became popular.
anko
Well-known member
Out of context, it might be an acronym for that, why not. As it might be an acronym for many other things, car related or not. In the Netherlands the majority of people will read CV automatically as Centrale Verwarming (or Central Heating in english). But when used in the context of a transmission (like I did, when I wrote "a type of transmission (CV)"), I thought it would be clear it refers to Continuously Variable and not Constant Velocity
greendwarf
Well-known member
gwatpe said:
But to be really pedantic what anko actually responded to that he didn't have was "the screaming up hills" - of course not, in Holland :lol:
anko
Well-known member
I can beat you in this game (for now). I did not say "I don't have that", which would refer to the screaming up hills. I said: "I don't have one", referring to a CVTgreendwarf said:
BTW: Have you see my reports of my caravan towing tests, where I dragged my caravan over 17% slopes? Believe me, we have hills (although not very high, they can be steep enough) and we can have some screaming up hills too, if we want to.
Claymore
Well-known member
OMG!
The Single Gear Automatic doesn't whine like a Continuously Variable Tran but............... :roll:
On the subject of the original question I'm a private buyer, retired, no BIKkering here and only done around a thousand miles of driving so far in my first experience of the PHEV.
Various lengths of trips but no real long ones so far.
So far I simply love it and I would definitely have another.
The theoretical economics are really almost irrelevant in my case...my last (diesel Skoda Superb) car only did 12,000 miles in 3 years and achieved an average in the high 50's miles per gallon so it would probably be cheaper for me to hire cabs for all of my travelling! (I know many of you are quite capable of working out whether or not that is correct but please....don't).
I now insist on doing the 1 mile round trip for the newspapers every day now for another excuse to drive it (plus the obvious benefit of not starting the wife's petrol car in freezing conditions for the same trip). Yes, I could walk, but where's the fun in that?
One of my neighbours (owner of new Range Rover with multiple recalls) spends more time looking at the Outlander covetously than his own
It's an expensive toy, but the best I've had so far.
JimB
The Single Gear Automatic doesn't whine like a Continuously Variable Tran but............... :roll:
On the subject of the original question I'm a private buyer, retired, no BIKkering here and only done around a thousand miles of driving so far in my first experience of the PHEV.
Various lengths of trips but no real long ones so far.
So far I simply love it and I would definitely have another.
The theoretical economics are really almost irrelevant in my case...my last (diesel Skoda Superb) car only did 12,000 miles in 3 years and achieved an average in the high 50's miles per gallon so it would probably be cheaper for me to hire cabs for all of my travelling! (I know many of you are quite capable of working out whether or not that is correct but please....don't).
I now insist on doing the 1 mile round trip for the newspapers every day now for another excuse to drive it (plus the obvious benefit of not starting the wife's petrol car in freezing conditions for the same trip). Yes, I could walk, but where's the fun in that?
One of my neighbours (owner of new Range Rover with multiple recalls) spends more time looking at the Outlander covetously than his own
It's an expensive toy, but the best I've had so far.
JimB
Thanks to those who are answering the original topic question.
These answers are proving very helpful to me, in understanding the why, and how, of ownership.
Speaking of which, (helpful that is) - How helpful do you find the dealers.
My experiences with the local salesmen have not led me to believe, that owning a Mitsubishi, may not be as pleasant as other motor dealers, I have dealt with over the years. Also it seems you are trapped, by the complexity of the PHEV, into having to use the main dealers.
These answers are proving very helpful to me, in understanding the why, and how, of ownership.
Speaking of which, (helpful that is) - How helpful do you find the dealers.
My experiences with the local salesmen have not led me to believe, that owning a Mitsubishi, may not be as pleasant as other motor dealers, I have dealt with over the years. Also it seems you are trapped, by the complexity of the PHEV, into having to use the main dealers.
ian4x4 said:
I think any prospective buyer who does her/his homework will know more about the car in a short space of time than the sales people. As for complexity, that is very true. This would also apply to a lot of other recent cars, especially the more upmarket ones. The actual maintenance requirements of the PHEV are very similar to normal cars, however, when things go wrong, you're definitely tied to the Mitsubishi dealer network.
Also, as emission rules tighten, owning a diesel car for local runs will not be a good choice.
As it stands, there is no other "green" car that can match the PHEV's versatility, none!
