Do not be scared of using that charge button.

[greendwarf]

In my experience once you are in parallel mode at that sort of speed, pressing Charge has little effect, (I am usually on Cruise Control) as all the power is going to the wheels with nothing left over for the battery. It will only be in an "overrun" situation (i.e. when going downhill) that you get some charging. So yes, the battery will get charged during high speed driving but very slowly.

You realise he wrote km/h, not MPH? If what you said was true, you would not be able to maintain such speed in the long run. At 110 km/h there is plenty of surplus power to recharge the battery and allow the ICE to be switched off about 1/4 of the time. It is quite different when climbing or towing ;-)

Yes and 110 km/h is 68 mph i.e. just below the UK legal limit, which is what I cruise at on a motorway. I can assure you that Charge has the effect I described in my car - I did say "in my experience". Irrespective of our different "experiences" I don't understand why you should say that my description wouldn't allow such speed in the long run? - unless you run out of petrol :lol:

 

[maby]

In my experience once you are in parallel mode at that sort of speed, pressing Charge has little effect, (I am usually on Cruise Control) as all the power is going to the wheels with nothing left over for the battery. It will only be in an "overrun" situation (i.e. when going downhill) that you get some charging. So yes, the battery will get charged during high speed driving but very slowly.

You realise he wrote km/h, not MPH? If what you said was true, you would not be able to maintain such speed in the long run. At 110 km/h there is plenty of surplus power to recharge the battery and allow the ICE to be switched off about 1/4 of the time. It is quite different when climbing or towing ;-)

Yes and 110 km/h is 68 mph i.e. just below the UK legal limit, which is what I cruise at on a motorway. I can assure you that Charge has the effect I described in my car - I did say "in my experience". Irrespective of our different "experiences" I don't understand why you should say that my description wouldn't allow such speed in the long run? - unless you run out of petrol :lol:

I would agree that cruising at (UK) motorway speeds the Charge button has little effect. Clearly the car does have the power output to cruise for prolonged periods at significantly higher speeds - I have always assumed that the designers took the decision to reduce the charge rate to a trickle at those speeds in order to improve fuel consumption.

 

[jaapv]

Not my experience. I find that on long Autobahn runs, especially in Southern Germany where the roads get hilly, using "Charge" will keep a decent battery state of charge, whereas draining it down by not charging will deplete all reserve - which is needed for long climbs. I normally drive at an speed of about 140 kph, with bursts up to 170.

 

[anko]

Not my experience. I find that on long Autobahn runs, especially in Southern Germany where the roads get hilly, using "Charge" will keep a decent battery state of charge, whereas draining it down by not charging will deplete all reserve - which is needed for long climbs. I normally drive at an speed of about 140 kph, with bursts up to 170.

I believe this is a known effect. But it only occurs at speeds above where EV mode is still possible. So, above approx. 125 km/h. You agree? And I believe I understand why this is happening:

At these speeds, it makes no sense to charge the battery because the car has no option to drop out of Parallel mode and use the build up charge. So, it decides to not charge. But sometimes, driving conditions require little bit more power than the engine can provide. And at these moments, the battery will be discharged. So, over time, SOC will drop. Unless you force it to charge using the Charge button.

At 110 km/h, EV mod eis still possible. Different story ;-)

 

[anko]

In my experience once you are in parallel mode at that sort of speed, pressing Charge has little effect, (I am usually on Cruise Control) as all the power is going to the wheels with nothing left over for the battery. It will only be in an "overrun" situation (i.e. when going downhill) that you get some charging. So yes, the battery will get charged during high speed driving but very slowly.

You realise he wrote km/h, not MPH? If what you said was true, you would not be able to maintain such speed in the long run. At 110 km/h there is plenty of surplus power to recharge the battery and allow the ICE to be switched off about 1/4 of the time. It is quite different when climbing or towing ;-)

Yes and 110 km/h is 68 mph i.e. just below the UK legal limit, which is what I cruise at on a motorway. I can assure you that Charge has the effect I described in my car - I did say "in my experience".

Let me take it one step back: you said "once you are in parallel mode, pressing Charge has little effect". Obviously, this is true because, at a steady 110 km/h, there is no difference between a car running in parallel mode and a car running in charge mode. In parallel mode the car will already be recharging the battery 'as fast as it seems fit' and pressing Charge will not increase the charge current. So indeed, pressing the Charge button will make no difference (not even the tiniest one).

This recharging allows the car to, every now and then, drop out of parallel mode and run in EV mode for a while (the 1/4 I was referring to) before starting the ICE again. Pressing Charge will prevent this 'dropping out of parallel mode' from happening, so there appears to be a difference between Parallel mode and Charge mode after all. But technically, when this difference manifests itself we are no longer comparing Parallel mode to Charge mode

But you also said (and this triggered my response): at 110 km/h all power available from the ICE is going to the wheels. For sure this is not true / cannot be true. First of all, look at this well known picture:

It show how much reserve the ICE has at various speeds. At 110 km/h, there is still a quite significant reserve. Jaapv seems even able to gain SOC at 140 km/h, and the picture appears to back up his finding. Also, it would mean the hysteresis cycle would be broken at 110 km/h. And IMHO we know this cycle goes on up to the speed at which WV mode is still possible, at least > 110 km/h.

To be fair, the ICE will no go above approx. 75% load for charging purposes (for propelling purposes, it will). But even when operating at 'just' 75% there is still surplus power available. Even at speeds above 110 km/h. So yes, if you ask me, when your car needs all available engine power at a steady 110 km/h on a flat road, you need to have it checked out. But honestly, I think you have have been comparing Parallel mode to Charge mode and drawn some wrong conclusions.

... I don't understand why you should say that my description wouldn't allow such speed in the long run? - unless you run out of petrol :lol:

If all the available power was going to the wheels some battery power would be needed to eliminate electromagnetic drag in the E-motors and the generator and this will slowly drain the battery. I guess about three to four hours of driving would take car of a full charge. It will not show on the diagrams on the dash, but it does happen. Eventually, your SOC will drop so low that the car would have to drop out of parallel mode to resolve the issue. No way that this will happen when driving at 110 km/h without any towing or climbing going on.

 

[anko]

I would agree that cruising at (UK) motorway speeds the Charge button has little effect. Clearly the car does have the power output to cruise for prolonged periods at significantly higher speeds - I have always assumed that the designers took the decision to reduce the charge rate to a trickle at those speeds in order to improve fuel consumption.

Seriously? But this would completely be defeating the purpose of implementing a hysteresis cycle and would increase fuel consumption on the long run instead of decrease it. As I wrote in my response, at speeds above approx 125 km/h, when EV drive is no longer an option and as a consequence the hysteresis cycle is no longer available, then yes. But at 110 km/h?

Didn't really want to go there, but you might want to consider that the charge current in your case is limited because of driving with high SOC

 

[maby]

I would agree that cruising at (UK) motorway speeds the Charge button has little effect. Clearly the car does have the power output to cruise for prolonged periods at significantly higher speeds - I have always assumed that the designers took the decision to reduce the charge rate to a trickle at those speeds in order to improve fuel consumption.

Seriously? But this would completely be defeating the purpose of implementing a hysteresis cycle and would increase fuel consumption on the long run instead of decrease it. As I wrote in my response, at speeds above approx 125 km/h, when EV drive is no longer an option and as a consequence the hysteresis cycle is no longer available, then yes. But at 110 km/h?

Didn't really want to go there, but you might want to consider that the charge current in your case is limited because of driving with high SOC

I'm talking about charging from a low SOC - the only time I use the Charge button is if I'm away from home and have accidentally allowed the battery to discharge. I have driven long distances at 70mph on "charge" with little increase in the SOC - much as greendwarf reports.

 

[greendwarf]

The OP specifically asked about what happens at 110km/h if you press Charge. He assumed (wrongly in my experience) that the charging would place additional demand on the ICE and either the speed would drop or he would have to increase fuel consumption to compensate. At the risk of seeming picky, I answered his question - "nothing", as there would be little or no charging. Whether my reasoning is right or wrong isn't of much practical use to him, as he hasn't got the car yet. :lol:

 

[HPM1111]

Thanks for all the clear up, I understand how the system works better now.
All in all what are your thoughts on the PHEV's system and its ability to charge on the move vs something like Volvo's V60 plug in? From the research I've done it does no ICE charging instead it has an ICE which is competent enough to tackle everything without electric assistance once the battery runs out.

 

[HPM1111]

I ask this since although there are obviously some advantages in having pure ev four wheel drive for example overall it seems that the system with 2 eletric motors + generator + ICE tuned for in motion charging accomplishes little benefit with added complexity.
Are there any real advantages in constantly cycling the petrol engine through a generator and on to the wheels rather than just having the petrol engine run the wheels?
All I can think of is ensuring you always have 4wd..

 

[jaapv]

The real benefit of the EV mode is using it in (sub)urban conditions, traffic jams, etc. At motorway speeds, it is much of a muchness, apart from keeping a reasonable SOC as a power reserve.

 

[HPM1111]

Ev only mode all current Phev cars have and I understand when it is more useful, ie town driving etc.

 

[greendwarf]

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but most PHEV users will only use the ICE on higher speed roads and set the mode to SAVE, so that they have battery in reserve and/or for use on slower roads e.g. at destination. Otherwise you will rapidly deplete the battery at motorway speeds.

However, in SAVE, if still in serial mode (see Anko's previous post) because ICE is generating electricity to drive the wheels via the electric motors then some energy is temporarily stored in the battery - plus any from Regen braking. As you have set it in SAVE at a specific level (unlike CHARGE) then the car will shutdown the ICE periodically and run in pure EV until the battery is back to the set level. This should improve consumption.

In addition, in serial mode the ICE is running at a more constant and efficient speed rather than fluctuating as in a normal car directly driving the wheels - again improving consumption. The down side is that when it goes into parallel mode and does directly drive the wheels through the one fixed ratio gear, any changes in speed have an adverse effect on consumption as you can't "change gear" to maintain engine revs at their most efficient. However, the car will mitigate this by dropping back into serial mode if you slow down significantly.

No doubt anko etc. will advise you of any errors I have made in this explanation :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jaapv]

Just one addition, if you run on "save" on the motorway at higher speeds than usual in most places like the UK and the Netherlands, and/or are fully laden or drag a trailer, the "save" setting will gradually go down as the computer gets fooled by dropping levels under heavy load. In my experience "charge" will maintain the SOC level somewhere at half-point under those circumstances. In the mountains and under heavy motorway loads it is preferable.

 

[HPM1111]

My point stands, would you not rather have an adequate ICE+gearbox for efficient parallel operation rather than a serial hybrid? The point is the outlander phev is programmed to run on eletric as much as possible relying for that purpose on série hybrid charging which is inherently inefficient. Would you not rather have a system like Volvo's? I whish I could have the turbo version of the 4B11 for parallel operation and lose the serial mode/generator all together even of that meant loosing 4wd once battery charge was depleted.
From my understanding one of the reasons for mitsubishi to adopt this serial mode was to allow for a smaller battery pack to feed both eletric engines without a discharge rate that would reduce cell life (up o 120kw)
One the other hand we are stuck with 60kw total power in pure ev anyway.

 

[anko]

The OP specifically asked about what happens at 110km/h if you press Charge. He assumed (wrongly in my experience) that the charging would place additional demand on the ICE and either the speed would drop or he would have to increase fuel consumption to compensate. At the risk of seeming picky, I answered his question - "nothing", as there would be little or no charging. Whether my reasoning is right or wrong isn't of much practical use to him, as he hasn't got the car yet. :lol:

At the risk of being pedantic: there would be little or no (in fact no) extra charging. More or less the same answer when you only look at the question asked, but quite a difference if you look just a little bit beyond that question. HPM1111 is not the only person reading your answers. And I don't buy it that people on this forum are only interested in yes/no answers and not in some backgrounds helping them to understand these answers. And allowing them to draw additional conclusions based on the reasoning behind these answers themselves. My kids are in high school. They are thought that a good answer based on wrong reasoning is a wrong answer.

 

[HPM1111]

Thank you Anko. Indeed my query goes beyond the practical yes/no but regards the way the system works all together. I'm a mechatronics engineer and work in renewable energy hence the interest in efficiency beyond the monetary aspects. I am sold on the outlander phev because of the "car" but not so sure on the efficency of this "serial hybrid bias".

 

[maby]

My point stands, would you not rather have an adequate ICE+gearbox for efficient parallel operation rather than a serial hybrid? The point is the outlander phev is programmed to run on eletric as much as possible relying for that purpose on série hybrid charging which is inherently inefficient. Would you not rather have a system like Volvo's? I whish I could have the turbo version of the 4B11 for parallel operation and lose the serial mode/generator all together even of that meant loosing 4wd once battery charge was depleted.
From my understanding one of the reasons for mitsubishi to adopt this serial mode was to allow for a smaller battery pack to feed both eletric engines without a discharge rate that would reduce cell life (up o 120kw)
One the other hand we are stuck with 60kw total power in pure ev anyway.

The lack of a gearbox - and virtual lack of a clutch - was one of my primary reasons for going for the PHEV. I hate mechanical transmissions and have had many problems with them over the years. My ideal car is one fitted with the Toyota hybrid drive train - no clutch at all and all the gears that are present are permanently meshed.

 

[anko]

No doubt anko etc. will advise you of any errors I have made in this explanation :lol: :lol: :lol:

You make it very difficult not to ;-)

but most PHEV users will only use the ICE on higher speed roads and set the mode to SAVE, so that they have battery in reserve and/or for use on slower roads e.g. at destination. Otherwise you will rapidly deplete the battery at motorway speeds.

However, in SAVE, if still in serial mode (see Anko's previous post) because ICE is generating electricity to drive the wheels via the electric motors then some energy is temporarily stored in the battery - plus any from Regen braking. As you have set it in SAVE at a specific level (unlike CHARGE) then the car will shutdown the ICE periodically and run in pure EV until the battery is back to the set level. This should improve consumption.

This describes the hysteresis cycle. But this hysteresis cycle does not only happen in serial mode, it also happens in parallel mode. A better way of looking at it is this: at low speed (< 65 km/h), the hysteresis cycle switches between serial mode and EV mode, where at higher speed (>65 km/h) it switches between parallel mode and EV mode. But the mechanism is the same. Likewise, Charge mode forces serial mode at lower speed and paralel mode at higher speed.

In addition, in serial mode the ICE is running at a more constant and efficient speed rather than fluctuating as in a normal car directly driving the wheels - again improving consumption.

I guess they must be selling two types of PHEV :shock: . In parallel mode, only changes in speed, which are mostly gradually, result in (linear) ch anges in RPM. Yes, like a normal car as long as you do not change gears. Altogether, in parallel mode RPM is quite steady. In serial mode however, any change in throttle position and / or any change in driving conditions (wind, incline, ...) result in a changes in RPMs. This results in what people call the CVT effect or the race conditions that so many people hate. I believe this is the main reason why many people use Charge or Save on te motorway: it allows them to stay away from serial mode. You said something similar yourself:

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but most PHEV users will only use the ICE on higher speed roads and set the mode to SAVE, so that they have battery in reserve and/or for use on slower roads e.g. at destination. Otherwise you will rapidly deplete the battery at motorway speeds.

 

[anko]

My point stands, would you not rather have an adequate ICE+gearbox for efficient parallel operation rather than ...

The Volvo has a big, heavy and costly engine and a big heavy and costly transmission. For what? How often do you use that? I guess the PHEV ICE is sized for an average power demand. When power demand is low, available power reserve is stored to be used when demand is high.

The only reservation I have is when towing over distances. The PHEV will not use all power reserves for charging the battery. It will aim to stay below 75% load. During towing, this means there is not much charging going on and SOC will drop over time. Even when towing, available power is in theory still more than what you need in average, but it practice it does not deploy all that power.

...rather than a serial hybrid? The point is the outlander phev is programmed to run on eletric as much as possible relying for that purpose on série hybrid charging which is inherently inefficient.

This is only the case at low speed. At high speed, the car does not depend on serial hybrid charging. See my previous post on the hysteresis cycle. On speeds between approx. 65 and 125 km/h it uses parallel hybrid mode: it drives the wheels directly and produces additional power at relatively low cost (as efficiency is higher under higher load). The additional power is buffered in the battery and allows for periods of EV driving later. On the motorway or, when you use Save / Charge smartly, instead of serial hybrid mode.