EV ONLY MODE

[anko]

The cost of the petrol is not an issue - it is the frustration of knowing that if there was a variable setting on the software, I could drive a short distance with no engine. Just because it is a hybrid does not mean the engine has to run, or that we accept it has to run. The car is capable of running in pure EV, only the software settings prevent that from happening. That means they could be changed.

+10

 

[anko]

Why is it better for the engine? If it is not required at all on a short journey, why would starting it on a cold day help it mechanically?

He did not say that. He said:

Once it starts, the software does keep it on for a while - better for the engine that way.

And that totally makes sense.

 

[anko]

If you want a minimum of ICE at the cost of comfort, just turn the heating all the way down to 15, switch off the airco, switch off the car and hit the ECO button as soon as possible. It guarantees blue toes, but it harnesses the ICE.

I agree, although gos claims that at -18 degrees, even that won't work. If that is correct, for most of us it will not really be an issue, but for some it will be.

It was clear from the beginning that the design philosophy on the Outlander was aimed at an integrated concept.

Not even the Dutch Mitsubishi distributer (13.000+ cars sold) is able to explain to me what the logic is behind this all. All they officially say is: "when it gets extremely cold the engine will be started to aid the electric heater.". The way I see it, we haven't experienced extreme cold in the Netherlands. The way Mitsubishi sees it, apparently extreme cold starts at approx. +7. How could we have known that? And even that statement stems from way after many of us had already bought the car. Finally, IMHO, allowing you to not use the engine for heating doesn't make it a less integrated concept.

If you wanted a PHEV with a pure EV setting, you should have gone for a Mercedes, or maybe a Leaf.

What is wrong with trying to make the PHEV as good as possible? What would be against having or trying to get such a mode?

More important, to make this discussion clearer, we should decide on what we want: "EV only driving" or just "EV only heating"? The first, you can achieve yourself by controlling your right food. And if you accidentally floor it and the engine is started, the penalty is limited to a cold start and a quarter of a lemonade glass of gasoline. The second, you can only achieved by switching off the heater. If you don't switch off the heater, the penalty is serious fuel consumption, even with a full battery. I think it would be great if you could achieve the second by the push of a button (or have it linked to the ECO button).

Can we agree that what this topic is about is "pure EV heating" and not "pure EV driving"? Then items as safety do no longer have to stand in the way.

By the way, with proper pre heating capabilities, "EV only heating" can also be achieved by proper planning of your trip. For me personally, this is possible for about half of my trips. For the other half, mostly I don't start with a sufficiently charged battery anyway (current profile). So, in many cases, I don't need a "EV only heating" mode. But, although slightly less than before, I still very much desire to have it. As there will always be unplanned trips with a full-enough battery where I still have to choose between burning fuel or freezing.

I have asked the Dutch distributer many times. First they didn't agree with me as "having an EV only heating mode would impact comfort to much, according to Mitsubishi". Then I explained to them that having to turn off the heater in order to minimise environmental footprint or in order to be allowed to enter EV only zones of cities, impacts comfort much more than slower heating. Now they say: "We understand your request and have forwarded it to the manufacturer. They will take it into consideration for future models.". I think that sucks. Especially since, in my opinion, it cannot be much more than just software settings.

I think we should be pushing this internationally.

 

[maby]

I guess the point is that, for most owners, it would not make a lot of difference unless the battery capacity is greatly increased. If you use it as a general purpose large car, your fuel consumption is going to be dominated by the long and high speed journeys. Yes, my engine does come on unnecessarily on two or three mile trips on a cold morning, but those trips contribute very little to my current fuel consumption of around 46mpg. The vast majority of the petrol that I put into the tank is burned on the 60 mile round trip I make most weeks to visit my mother and the 200 mile round trip we make most weekends to go to our boat.

If they manage to get a large enough battery into the next model for a 100+ mile EV range, then I might be more exercised by it kicking the engine up on the two mile trips.

 

[PolishPilot]

Yes- but how would you get the car to deliver full power? The electric motors only deliver half or less at speed.

There is a very simple solution for that, example Mecedes:

the C350 features a “haptic” accelerator pedal that lets the driver know when the car is about to switch on the gas engine, and when to take their foot off the pedal for optimum fuel economy.

Source:
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/mercedes-c350-plug-in-hybrid-debuts-in-detroit-lots-more-phevs-on-the-way/

EV mode is a must.

For legal reasons in some regions, and for environment and mpg in general.

 

[PolishPilot]

...... It is a hybrid, not an EV and it burns petrol when the designers decided that was the right thing to do. Perhaps my reaction is based on my previous Prius ownership - the Outlander behaves pretty much the way I expected based on the brochures and the way a Prius works.....

Outlander is not a "hybrid". It is a PHEV, Plug-In Hybrid ELECTRIC VEHICLE.

It was advertised to drive for 30 miles as a pure ELECTRIC VEHICLE.
As an engineer I have understood, that a car wit 2 ELECTRIC motors driving each axle
with a big battery is an ELECTRIC VEHICLE.

...and BTW, your Prius with the tiny battery was a "hybrid", but nevertheless had a "pure EV" button.
You might have never used it, but it was there, although good for just few miles and 30 mph.

 

[maby]

Yes- but how would you get the car to deliver full power? The electric motors only deliver half or less at speed.

There is a very simple solution for that, example Mecedes:

the C350 features a “haptic” accelerator pedal that lets the driver know when the car is about to switch on the gas engine, and when to take their foot off the pedal for optimum fuel economy.

Source:
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/mercedes-c350-plug-in-hybrid-debuts-in-detroit-lots-more-phevs-on-the-way/

EV mode is a must.

For legal reasons in some regions, and for environment and mpg in general.

Hmmm, with an 80hp electric motor and a claimed EV range of less than 20 miles, it will be interesting to see the comments on the equivalent of this forum for the C350! That hybrid system is even more of a tax dodge than the one in the Outlander.

 

[jaapv]

Ummm... Where exactly did you lose the H for Hybrid? :?:

As somebody trained in engineering you should understand that a design decision is taken in an early stage and that a product is sold "as is". It is up to the customer to research the product and make a buying decision. Complaining afterwards about the design is normally pretty useless.

 

[anko]

I guess the point is that, for most owners, it would not make a lot of difference unless the battery capacity is greatly increased.

That is not a reason for other not to want this feature. Or even to push for it.

 

[anko]

As somebody trained in engineering you should understand that a design decision is taken in an early stage and that a product is sold "as is". It is up to the customer to research the product and make a buying decision. Complaining afterwards about the design is normally pretty useless.

Jaap, when you investigated the product, you must (or may) have noticed that pre heating was limited to 10 minutes, right? Please check again, as it has been changed by Mitsubishi! I realise you must be fully aware of this. I wrote it down, just to demonstrate that things can and do change.

Somehow it looks as if you are worried you have to pay for this mod yourself. What is the problem with people trying to enhance the world?

 

[maby]

I guess the point is that, for most owners, it would not make a lot of difference unless the battery capacity is greatly increased.

That is not a reason for other not to want this feature. Or even to push for it.

It is a reason for not attaching much importance to it. We are a bunch of techie nerds here and not representative of the general public. Some buyers will complain bitterly about not getting that mythical 148mpg and some may try to sue. The rest will be realistic and be grateful for getting around 50mpg out of a car that is close in size, performance and capability to a Landcruiser which is hard pressed to do better than 20mpg. They will also be pleased that they are avoiding all sorts of taxes and usage restrictions that are being introduced on large, dirty cars. Few of the general public will, I suspect, even notice that the petrol engine is kicking in from time to time on a cold morning.

 

[jaapv]

As somebody trained in engineering you should understand that a design decision is taken in an early stage and that a product is sold "as is". It is up to the customer to research the product and make a buying decision. Complaining afterwards about the design is normally pretty useless.

Jaap, when you investigated the product, you must (or may) have noticed that pre heating was limited to 10 minutes, right? Please check again, as it has been changed by Mitsubishi! I realise you must be fully aware of this. I wrote it down, just to demonstrate that things can and do change.

Somehow it looks as if you are worried you have to pay for this mod yourself. What is the problem with people trying to enhance the world?

Now you are complaining about a compnay ugrading/updating firmware? That is something quite different from a decision about the basic functioning of the car.

 

[anko]

It is a reason for not attaching much importance to it. We are a bunch of techie nerds here and not representative of the general public. Some buyers will complain bitterly about not getting that mythical 148mpg and some may try to sue. The rest will be realistic and be grateful for getting around 50mpg out of a car that is close in size, performance and capability to a Landcruiser which is hard pressed to do better than 20mpg.

Again, that is not a reason for others not to want this feature. Or even to push for it.

They will also be pleased that they are avoiding all sorts of taxes and usage restrictions that are being introduced on large, dirty cars. Few of the general public will, I suspect, even notice that the petrol engine is kicking in from time to time on a cold morning.

And this is why there is a lot of controverse about all the tax benefits associated with this car in the Netherlands (I assume similar things go on in other countries). A lot of (political) parties believe the whole program was a big joke. Imagine what will happen when the real general public (as in non-PHEV drivers) becomes aware that 10.000+ of these, at their expense, highly promoted cars don't care too much about unnecessary pollution and that Mitsubishi is not willing to do something about it. In my opinion, Mitsubishi has benefitted big time from this program and therefor has a serious responsibility towards it. The fact that they consider changing this only for future models is very disappointing.

If they can't fix it, without hardware changes, it is a different story, of course. I have asked the Dutch distributor if there were such reasons and they never gave any.

 

[jaapv]

The last is quite a valid argument. LPG systems built in - extra petrol tanks, cars that have never seen a charger - all to gain a tax Euro.... :evil: :evil:

 

[PolishPilot]

There are m,ore and more EV only zones around the cities in the world.
The people living there are forced to use EV, and are sometimes buying
a PHEV with a range big enough to get out of this zone in pure EV mode
and be able to travel on long distances further away.

If they buy an Outlander PHEV, on cold days they will be forced to stay home
or risk a hefty fine zooming around on ICE and spiting CO2 on angry neighbours.

I hope I made my point clear now, that the car is not delivering on promises made.

Up to 30 miles EV range means 30 miles EV range, and not
30 miles EV range, but occasionally turning on the ICE.

 

[maby]

It's not really any secret that hybrids are primarily a tax avoidance scheme. For most users, the reductions in fuel consumption and pollution are far too small to justify the tax concessions in any objective terms. It's a nice car which is a bit cheaper to run than other large 4WD estates, but a small petrol or diesel saloon will outperform it in environmental terms for most users. Most of the current generation of hybrids are designed to just scrape under the bar of the primary performance testing regimes around the world and dodge most taxes. If they doubled the length of the European test track, we would be paying full road tax and benefits in kind.

 

[maby]

There are m,ore and more EV only zones around the cities in the world.
The people living there are forced to use EV, and are sometimes buying
a PHEV with a range big enough to get out of this zone in pure EV mode
and be able to travel on long distances further away.

If they buy an Outlander PHEV, on cold days they will be forced to stay home
or risk a hefty fine zooming around on ICE and spiting CO2 on angry neighbours.

I hope I made my point clear now, that the car is not delivering on promises made.

Up to 30 miles EV range means 30 miles EV range, and not
30 miles EV range, but occasionally turning on the ICE.

I'm not sure there were any promises made - the advertising talks about "up to 30 miles on EV". Under the right circumstances it can do 30 miles on EV without ever turning the engine on - but those circumstances do not include cold winter days.

I'm very sceptical about anyone getting fined in a big city like London if the petrol engine occasionally kicks in. The exemptions will be based on the official performance figures for the car - nobody is going to be stopping vehicles and collecting some exhaust to check that it is running EV. It will be very difficult for automated roadside detection equipment to identify PHEVs not running EV with sufficient certainty to support a prosecution. The more likely scenario if the authorities take it sufficiently seriously is that they will simply increase the required EV range for exemption and will ban Outlanders. If they do this, the Mercedes will be in an even worse position with its claimed 20 mile EV range

 

[PolishPilot]

It's not really any secret that hybrids are primarily a tax avoidance scheme. For most users, the reductions in fuel consumption and pollution are far too small to justify the tax concessions in any objective terms. It's a nice car which is a bit cheaper to run than other large 4WD estates, but a small petrol or diesel saloon will outperform it in environmental terms for most users. Most of the current generation of hybrids are designed to just scrape under the bar of the primary performance testing regimes around the world and dodge most taxes. If they doubled the length of the European test track, we would be paying full road tax and benefits in kind.

So call me an idiot, but there are no "tax avoidance schemes" for EV in Poland and for me
"the (alleged) reduction in fuel consumption and pollution ... justified" the purchase.

This is, maybe, why I feel so bad about the lack of "pure EV" button, because 80% of my driving
is below 10 miles and on cold days since 4 months.

I have all the right to be pi...ed off.

 

[PolishPilot]

.....- but those circumstances do not include cold winter days.

If there were even the slightest hint about this disclaimer in the brochure,
with an asterisk and small print on the bottom of the brochure,
I would have never bought the car.

I am used to read any and all small print and all the asterisk texts,
in all contracts and advertising material, but there wasn't any like the above.

 

[PolishPilot]

.... If they do this, the Mercedes will be in an even worse position with its claimed 20 mile EV range

You obviously still don't get it.

30 or 20 miles, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a real, pure EV mode, with no tailpipe exhaust.

It can be 200 miles range, but if the ICE will kick in occasionally, you will be banned form many cities,
not in London, but certainly many retirement closed communities in Florida and California,
with a strict ban on ICE vehicles whatsoever.

(BTW: I do believe that the US version of the Outlander PHEV will have the "pure EV" button,
an that it doesn't have it now is one of the reasons they are not sold there now.
I hope we will al profit form this development, due mid 2015.)

You will immediately say, it is hot there, but even on warm days ICE will kick in, if you press
the pedal too hard, and there should be a way to prevent it with a simple button.