help for new owner

[richardhill]

Hi my name is richard and i have ordered an outlander phev, and its not been delievered yet, i have joined chargemaster , got a lead for charging on the road etc but i need some help , does anyone know about the brake paddles do they help charge , how often do you need to use them and what sort of charge do you get when using them , im totally confused .i do know about charging at home and on the road , but realistically how many miles will i get not driving mad , more like driving miss daisy from a full charge. and finally if i do a run from london to bristol for example, what sort of real world mpg will i see , i have got a juro coming and again i dont drive fast

hope someone can help an ev virgin and im sorry if my question appears stupid

many thanks in advande

richard ev virgin

 

[Woodman411]

Hello Richard, first of all, you can download the Outlander PHEV manual here: https://carmanuals2.com/get/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-2018-owner-s-manual-111847

On page 5-56 of that manual, it explains:

While the “D” (DRIVE) or “B” (REGENERATIVE
BRAKE) position is selected, the
regenerative braking force level can be
changed by pulling one of the regenerative
braking force paddle selectors toward you.
One of six regenerative braking force levels,
B0 (without regenerative braking), or B1
(weakest level) to B5 (strongest level), can be
selected.
When stronger regenerative braking is
applied, more energy will be charged to the
main drive lithium-ion battery

In other words, more resistance = more energy (for the drive-battery). "How often you need to use" and "what sort of charge do you get when using them" depends, among other things, on a combination of vehicle speed, road angles, and how often and how much one needs to slow down.

 

[ChrisMiller]

By default in D(rive) the braking effect is equivalent to B2. There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving it there and never touching the brake selectors. If you find you enjoy playing with the selector levers, you might be able to gain a mile or two in range and/or improve your fuel consumption by one or two mpg, but the car is already quite efficient left to its own devices.

The electronics limit the rate of recharging to prevent damage to the battery, so even if you select B5, with a nearly 'full' battery the regenerative braking force is much less than when the battery meter is down to 3/4 or less.

 

[richardhill]

many thanks for that info , any idea of real world mpg figures

many thanks

 

[NightPHEVer]

Somewhere around 40 mpg is probably about realistic. Although if you're - as you suggest - a 'careful' driver then it might be a bit more. It always pays to be able to charge it from the mains at each end of a journey if that's easily achievable. Public subscription charging facilities may be better in your part of the world but I would think not always worth the effort when there's only 30 miles of electric propulsion on offer. I've run my PHEV for over two years now and never used a public charge point. Workplace charge points must be handy, but I don't have a workplace as such.

The other thing that the regenerative paddles provide is the equivalent of variable 'engine' braking. Ie. if the batteries are fully charged when you take your foot of the power, due to the fact that its drivetrain mechanicals are nothing like a conventional car, the PHEV doesn't have very much in the way of 'engine' braking - like a conventional car would. When the batteries are a bit flatter then increasing the number of the regenerative paddle increases the 'engine' braking considerably. More like a conventional car. If you go down a steep hill in position 5 you'll hardly need to use the brakes. If you went down the hill in position O you might scare yourself a bit and the brakes will get a bit hot. I usually end up in position 3 or 4 mostly for the engine braking effect.

There does appear to be a consensus of opinion though that using position 5 all the time is not that good for the batteries long term. Too much reversed polarity. Wouldn't know myself as I'm not very technically minded. Although as I'm about to buy a house with ground source heating and a MVHR system I probably need to become a bit more technically minded.

 

[Woodman411]

Somewhere around 40 mpg is probably about realistic. Although if you're - as you suggest - a 'careful' driver then it might be a bit more. It always pays to be able to charge it from the mains at each end of a journey if that's easily achievable. Public subscription charging facilities may be better in your part of the world but I would think not always worth the effort when there's only 30 miles of electric propulsion on offer. I've run my PHEV for over two years now and never used a public charge point. Workplace charge points must be handy, but I don't have a workplace as such.

The other thing that the regenerative paddles provide is the equvilant of variable 'engine' braking. Ie. if the batteries are fully charged when you take your foot of the power, due to the fact that its drivetrain mechanicals are nothing like a conventional car, the PHEV doesn't have very much in the way of 'engine' braking - like a conventional car would. When the batteries are a bit flatter then increasing the number of the regenerative paddle increases the 'engine' braking considerably. More like a conventional car. If you go down a steep hill in position 5 you'll hardly need to use the brakes. If you went down the hill in position O you might scare yourself a bit and the brakes will get a bit hot. I usually end up in position 3 or 4 mostly for the engine braking effect.

There does appear to be a consensus of opinion though that using position 5 all the time is not that good for the batteries long term. Too much reversed polarity. Wouldn't know myself as I'm not very technically minded. Although as I'm about to buy a house with ground source heating and a MVHR system I probably need to become a bit more technically minded.

I would also say using regen braking often would reduce battery life/capacity, since that increases the charge cycles. The graph in this reference shows the relationship between the number of charge cycles with depth-of-discharge and how it affects battery life: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-last

 

[ThudnBlundr]

To be honest, you can leave the car to do its own thing and it will be efficient. You can try to play around with the ECO button or with the 'B' settings and you may get marginal gains, but it's difficult to quantify what the actual improvement is without rigorous and repeated testing. It's almost certainly worth increasing regen when going downhill as it's wasted energy otherwise. I tend to drive with a higher regen setting as it works for the way I drive on the roads around us. Do some experiments and see what works for you

The real answer is that no one knows how high or low regen affects battery life, as we're still in the early stages - the oldest PHEV is still only 6 years old. In effect we're all guinea pigs. Certain activities are known to reduce SOH, but the PHEV has software in place to avoid those. There is evidence saying that using the battery shortens its life, and evidence that not using it shortens its life. You can't win! Using B5 can put over 30kW back into the battery if the brakes are used as well. This is around 2.5C, which is high but not excessively so. A 10A charger only puts around 2.5kW (0.2C) and the 16A around 4kW (0.3C). However the regeneration peaks are short duration, so there's no firm evidence one way or the other of the long-term effects

 

[robdickinson]

I usually set B5 for around town so I can mostly drive on one pedal. Helps if you have a deft touch on the accelerator because you can then choose if you accelerate, glide or regen/brake.

On long trips I'll drop that to D/B2 or B0 for gliding.

All the B0-b5 settings do is set where the neutral point on the accelerator is between acceleration and regen

 

[anko]

All the B0-b5 settings do is set where the neutral point on the accelerator is between acceleration and regen

I don't think this is true. When my battery was still in a better shape I have done tests that showed that max regen in B5 produces a higher charge current than max regen in B0 does. So B0 is heavier on the brakes, B5 is heavier on the battery.

Why would that be? Would Mitsubishi perhaps know that high regen is not good good on the battery (and have forgotten to tell us)?

Today, after almost 5 years of mostly B5, my battery is at about 67% SoH and max regen is strongly limited by the car's brains. So I don't see this difference anymore.

 

[richardhill]

well i cant thank you all enough, i am still waiting for the new car to arrive .not very happy with the dealer in maidenhead bucks , they dont seem able to give me any information other than a vauge word that should be here by Friday , not happy with them , anyway thanks to all for the replies , i suppose the only way to get final answers is to try everything when i eventually get the car. and i will report back my findings to all.

again thanks

richard

 

[elm70]

To be honest, you can leave the car to do its own thing and it will be efficient. You can try to play around with the ECO button or with the 'B' settings and you may get marginal gains, but it's difficult to quantify what the actual improvement is without rigorous and repeated testing. It's almost certainly worth increasing regen when going downhill as it's wasted energy otherwise. I tend to drive with a higher regen setting as it works for the way I drive on the roads around us. Do some experiments and see what works for you

The real answer is that no one knows how high or low regen affects battery life, as we're still in the early stages - the oldest PHEV is still only 6 years old. In effect we're all guinea pigs. Certain activities are known to reduce SOH, but the PHEV has software in place to avoid those. There is evidence saying that using the battery shortens its life, and evidence that not using it shortens its life. You can't win! Using B5 can put over 30kW back into the battery if the brakes are used as well. This is around 2.5C, which is high but not excessively so. A 10A charger only puts around 2.5kW (0.2C) and the 16A around 4kW (0.3C). However the regeneration peaks are short duration, so there's no firm evidence one way or the other of the long-term effects

Actually using B5 we can see over 40kw charging power .. and this is almost 4C

I did read somewhere that Mitsubishi acknowledge that using Chademo, can short the battery life of the PHEV .. chademo on PHEV does push max 20kw ... so regen can push 2 time more.

I personally believe it is not healthy to push such regen power back into the battery ...

 

[jaapv]

The main problem of high-power charging is the heating up of the internal membranes. Continuous charging for half an hour is sure to be more damaging than short bursts by regen braking.

 

[elm70]

The main problem of high-power charging is the heating up of the internal membranes. Continuous charging for half an hour is sure to be more damaging than short bursts by regen braking.

I'm not convinced

Lithium battery sold for hobby RC model ... have since years the suggested max charging current normally at 1C max. And these are battery normally declared with 20C or 30C discharge capability

Our PHEV has only 5C discharge capability ... so 4C charge sounds "very strange" even if this for a short time.

As well ... battery can be already "hot/warm" due to the discharge usage ... so push on a 5C on regen brake while the temperature of some cells can be already above 45deg does not sound "healthy"

Anyhow ... Anko was posting a very interesting question : why Mitsubishi reduce the max regen power on default B2 ... and does increase it progressively up to B5 ?? ... it is clearly looking that Mitsubishi does not like the main battery to have high regen power ... they increase on B5 since B5 should be used for downhill comfort, and for these downhill they may estimated that stronger regen current may needed for slow down the car ... most probably not for maximize the regen power on a flat street in a urban usage

 

[Harald]

... I have done tests that showed that max regen in B5 produces a higher charge current than max regen in B0 does. So B0 is heavier on the brakes, B5 is heavier on the battery...

Hi Anko,

I watched this situation too and have exactly the opposite impression. Regardless if I had B5 or B0, the max. regen values on the car's screen were pretty similar.
(And that's the only configuration that makes sense to me...) Might be that I did not watch it good enough?

If you should have data or could share with us how you came to your conclusion, I would be curious to learn better.

Best regards, Harald

 

[anko]

... I have done tests that showed that max regen in B5 produces a higher charge current than max regen in B0 does. So B0 is heavier on the brakes, B5 is heavier on the battery...

Hi Anko,

I watched this situation too and have exactly the opposite impression. Regardless if I had B5 or B0, the max. regen values on the car's screen were pretty similar.
(And that's the only configuration that makes sense to me...) Might be that I did not watch it good enough?

If you should have data or could share with us how you came to your conclusion, I would be curious to learn better.

Best regards, Harald

Might wanna check out this thread: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1591. My last 'contribution' there was:

Here it comes (almost). This morning I picked up the caravan at the dealer to bring it home. Normally a 7 km trip over secondary roads. I added some 55 km of motorway, to do some testing.

Indeed regen power is very much depending on SOC. No surprise there.

On the exit ramp, hitting the breaks firmly at about 80 km/h, I managed to get 155 Amps in B5, about 50 kW. During the trip, I thought the highest number we had seen in B0 was less than 100 Amps, but my son later said he saw 114 at one point. Either way, must be at least 25% - 35% less than B5.

This is in the extremes. How it is in medium situations (slowing down, instead of breaking hard) will be pretty difficult to observe, I am afraid.

but this was when my car / battery was fairly new and in much better shape today. I strongly believe that (in order to protect my battery from to much further degradation) regardless of B-setting the maximum regen is reduced to the level that used to be the maximum for B0, or even below that, so you won't see a difference between B0 and B5 anymore.

In the "making sense" department: When I was still new to the car, I would have agreed with you. But in hindsight, I can imagine that B5 is more stressful to the battery and thus the idea is that you only use it when you really need it (for example to protect the physical brakes when going down hill). I know regen breaking is not continuously like DC charging, but still the charge current can be up to 4C from what I have noticed. Which is quite a lot.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

All the B0-b5 settings do is set where the neutral point on the accelerator is between acceleration and regen

I don't think this is true. When my battery was still in a better shape I have done tests that showed that max regen in B5 produces a higher charge current than max regen in B0 does. So B0 is heavier on the brakes, B5 is heavier on the battery.

B5 can put over 30kW back into the battery if the brakes are used as well.

anko is right. B5 increases the regen power fed back into the battery when the pedal is released - I'm assuming you knew that If you get PSideP on the central display, you can see that braking in B5 puts more than 30kW into the battery when the pedal is pressed. In another thread, someone has measured 36kW of regeneration using ODB2 readings.

 

[Superflan]

Yes, I can get the needle right to the bottom of the Charge zone on B5 when using the brakes, can’t get this on D or B3.

 

[Harald]

Thank you for the input.
It seems that I need to look closer again.

Harald

 

[Harald]

It seems that I need to look closer again.

Done. I really did not check it enough before getting your hint.

 

[richardhill]

hi can anyone tell me what the car

is doing when its shows this mode

many thanks