Outlander PHEV Sub-Zero Operation Question

[tikan]

I have heard that same information from a sales manager whom I trust (yes I said that - but he has told/done many things not to his advantage during the time I've dealt with him), another sales manager, and a service manager who only heard it from the dealership's tech when I asked her and she asked him - then I talked to him and he said as a tech he had to go looking to confirm it. (I think we share the same dealer tikan)

Pretty clearly Mitsu got caught with their pants down on this and try to slide one by.

I spent a couple hours last night reading through the Quebec class action filing requesting certification for class action. It was in French so it was a struggle (Thank you Miss Bishop for what you tried to teach me, sorry for not paying better attention - you did say "you live in Canada - this will come in handy some time")

https://www.registredesactionscollectives.quebec/fr/Fichier/Document?NomFichier=12859.pdf
Some of what I (think) I derived from it included:

• there were ~4600 Outlanders leased/sold in Canada last year (seems low to me)
• the plaintiff on behalf of the members of the class seeks compensation for
  • extra fuel consumed because of the failure of EV to work in the cold
  • money for lost value/failure to deliver
  • inconvenience and loss of use
  • additional $ for being naughty and failing to address the issue
  • total as I read it ~$22k per customer
• I couldn't fully discern whether the expectation was to make the battery work

To my mind the ask fell well short. I would have liked to see the buyer have to option to return the vehicle. After all, if I go to the hardware store and buy a cordless drill and it doesn't work, I take it back.

The dimension that hasn't been talked about and I think could/should bring some heavyweights to the table has to do with government EV rebates associated with the vehicle. I believe that the engineering changes that upped the theoretical EV range and allowed the vehicle to qualify for federal and provincial rebates verges on fraud. When the vehicle does start in the cold, it runs off the ICE, and has reduced maximum range - a range that would not qualify for some/full rebates.

In response do you think Mitsu would say "Hey - we did contribute to carbon reduction by making a vehicle that burned no fuel at all because they wouldn't start"?

I think our governments have been had as well.

Very interesting, thanks for the summary. One thing I noticed is they also have a lower "range" quoted on the Canadian models than the U.S.A. models. My dashboard shows around 81km of range on EV during the warm months but they say it will do 61km on the website. I think they lowered the advertised range so when people come to them with battery issues in 5-10 years they and it's below the threshold to replace they can say they only advertised 61km, so it hasn't met that threshold yet.
I definitely think they removed the batteries to either allow them to advertise more range or hit the 50km range threshold for the IZEV rebate. This could potentially get them in hot water for sure.

 

[phevGoBzzzzzz]

Very interesting, thanks for the summary. One thing I noticed is they also have a lower "range" quoted on the Canadian models than the U.S.A. models. My dashboard shows around 81km of range on EV during the warm months but they say it will do 61km on the website. I think they lowered the advertised range so when people come to them with battery issues in 5-10 years they and it's below the threshold to replace they can say they only advertised 61km, so it hasn't met that threshold yet.
I definitely think they removed the batteries to either allow them to advertise more range or hit the 50km range threshold for the IZEV rebate. This could potentially get them in hot water for sure.

Why would removing the heater increase range? In most weather it wouldn't be used, and would have no impact. I don't think range certification is done at - 20c.

 

[tikan]

Why would removing the heater increase range? In most weather it wouldn't be used, and would have no impact. I don't think range certification is done at - 20c.

My understanding is that it's an average through the year.

 

[nrayanov]

I find it funny Mitsubishi finds -25C "extreme cold". Where is this extreme cold? In Japan? In Greece? In Spain?

That's a temperature that can happen in any northern country and any high-mountain area in almost any country around the world.

I think an extremely cold temperature should be under -30C or -35C, which I have experienced only once or twice in my life. When I was a kid we regularly had temperatures between -20C and -25C in North-Western Bulgaria.

 

[maby]

It's quite cold by Japanese standards. I was surprised when they started selling it in Scandinavia - forget about Canada! We live in Southern England - pretty rare for the temperature to go below -5C - but I was not sure about the wisdom of offering the Outlander PHEV here. OK, it never refused to start, but the EV range drops significantly as the temperature dips close to zero and the fuel consumption rises. I never expected to run far on battery - we bought the car as a tax avoidance mechanism - but I would have felt annoyed if I had believed the claimed range of 32 miles when I bought it...

Martin

 

[tikan]

It's quite cold by Japanese standards. I was surprised when they started selling it in Scandinavia - forget about Canada! We live in Southern England - pretty rare for the temperature to go below -5C - but I was not sure about the wisdom of offering the Outlander PHEV here. OK, it never refused to start, but the EV range drops significantly as the temperature dips close to zero and the fuel consumption rises. I never expected to run far on battery - we bought the car as a tax avoidance mechanism - but I would have felt annoyed if I had believed the claimed range of 32 miles when I bought it...

Martin

This is a new issue though and they've sold these in Canada for years. Previous models had the heater and they recognized it was required for some markets. If they aren't going to outfit it for Canadian winters they shouldn't sell it here.

 

[nrayanov]

It's quite cold by Japanese standards. I was surprised when they started selling it in Scandinavia - forget about Canada! We live in Southern England - pretty rare for the temperature to go below -5C - but I was not sure about the wisdom of offering the Outlander PHEV here. OK, it never refused to start, but the EV range drops significantly as the temperature dips close to zero and the fuel consumption rises. I never expected to run far on battery - we bought the car as a tax avoidance mechanism - but I would have felt annoyed if I had believed the claimed range of 32 miles when I bought it...

Martin

I have the Gen III, I haven't had any issues in the cold winter weather, but I have a heat pump and a heater.

However, I believe the new Gen IV PHEV sold in Canada does NOT have the heater, hence the issues.

 

[kpetrov]

I have the Gen III, I haven't had any issues in the cold winter weather, but I have a heat pump and a heater.

However, I believe the new Gen IV PHEV sold in Canada does NOT have the heater, hence the issues.

Nrayanov,
Your Gen III doesn't have a heat pump, only regular electric heater matrix.

 

[mellobob]

I have the Gen III, I haven't had any issues in the cold winter weather, but I have a heat pump and a heater.

However, I believe the new Gen IV PHEV sold in Canada does NOT have the heater, hence the issues.

Not only does the '23/24 not have a battery heater, the ads for the '23 said it came with one. I'm surprised that issue wasn't taken to court earlier.

 

[nrayanov]

Nrayanov,
Your Gen III doesn't have a heat pump, only regular electric heater matrix.

Oh boy, really? I've been living in a lie... I thought it had.

 

[Grandad]

Why would removing the heater increase range? In most weather it wouldn't be used, and would have no impact. I don't think range certification is done at - 20c.

The article by Mr. Mas goes into the details but the long and short of it as I understand it is that the heater can bleed energy from the battery to do its thing.

 

[tikan]

EVs with battery heaters also tend to turn it off and on during the winter, even if they aren't plugged in, to keep the battery at a useable temperature. This reduces the overall range on average. They can't just pick a cool sunny day to do testing - it's got to be done in multiple conditions and averaged in some way.

 

[rafavez]

I just received a letter from Mitsubishi Canada. Apparently there’s a software update that “may prolong the time it takes for cooling of the drive-battery. Although this will no guarantee that the vehicle will start under extreme weather conditions, the software update may improve cold temperature starting ability”

I hope this really improves something

 

[Lon12]

I just received a letter from Mitsubishi Canada. Apparently there’s a software update that “may prolong the time it takes for cooling of the drive-battery. Although this will no guarantee that the vehicle will start under extreme weather conditions, the software update may improve cold temperature starting ability”

I hope this really improves something

I got the letter and update installed two days ago. Have not noticed anything different yet. The charging rate and charge time was the same. The battery cooling kicked in the same as it ever did before. Temperature was around freezing. Guess we will just have to wait and see when we get the next -30º cold snap.

 

[BobK]

I just got the software update letter from Mitsubishi Canada this morning. Here is the key section:
"It is important to keep the electric drive battery from getting too cold as it may not operate under these conditions. Please note as the vehicle is driven, the battery will generate some heat which will improve its ability to restart after it is shut off."
"It is strongly recommended that when parked for extended periods (overnight for example), all vehicles with electric drive batteries should be plugged in, which assists in keeping the drive battery warmer for a longer period of time while parked. This recomendation to charge the electric drive battery is particularly important if the vehicle is not parked indoors during extreme cold. For either of these extreme cold situations, Mitsubishi has developed an optional software enhancement update that may prolong the time it takes for cooling of the drive battery. Although this will not guarantee that the vehicle will start under all extreme cold conditions, the software update may improve extreme cold temperature starting ability."
There is also a card provided to put in the glove compartment that repeats the recommendation to plug in the charger cable when it is cold, but notes that even this has limits. It gives as an example -30C ambient temperature for more than 10 hours as potentially illuminating the warning on the dash and preventing the car from starting until it becomes warmer.
Even though it sounds like a marginal fix, I plan to do the update. Where I live near the moderating influence of the ocean, it is extremely rare for temperatures to get to -25C or -30C - so I can live with the compromise. But if I lived in much of the rest of Canada away from large bodies of water, I would be concerned about getting stranded when the temperature dropped.

 

[dgarth]

I don't think there is much you could do. You could charge the car, that may warm the battery up a bit. Driving will also. In the manual it states that you should wait for the temperatures to rise if the battery is too cold to start. Not a good answer, I know.

I think at those temps you still should be OK though.

Darren

I also have a 2023 Outlander PHEV, and love it! Although we have not had temperatures as cold as talked about by any means (the average winter temperature thus year has been just above freezing) we do get a few cold nights. I have never had any problem with my car not starting. I do plug it in on all cold nights, whether it needs a charge or not. (Level 1 charging)
I just receiver a letter from Mitsubishi Canada advising me of all the proper cold weather procedures, and advice that they have a refresh of the PDU.

To quote "an optional software enhancement update that may prolong the time it takes for cooling of the drive-battery."
They advise to contact the dealer to arrange an appointment for this if I wish to have it. (no charge)

 

[mrf604]

Very interesting, thanks for the summary. One thing I noticed is they also have a lower "range" quoted on the Canadian models than the U.S.A. models. My dashboard shows around 81km of range on EV during the warm months but they say it will do 61km on the website. I think they lowered the advertised range so when people come to them with battery issues in 5-10 years they and it's below the threshold to replace they can say they only advertised 61km, so it hasn't met that threshold yet.
I definitely think they removed the batteries to either allow them to advertise more range or hit the 50km range threshold for the IZEV rebate. This could potentially get them in hot water for sure.

The US and Canadian range spec is the same. US specs 38 miles which is 61 km. I do agree that the specs and software have been fudged for the north american market to meet the warranty offer. Other markets spec 81kms or about 50 miles.

 

[mrf604]

I think the software fix is basically Mitsubishi bypassing the lock out protection that the original firmware had. The original software was designed to protect the battery by not allowing the car to start when it was really cold. That of course caused all of the complaints so to "fix" it they changed things so the car would start in extreme cold. All off this nonsense about plugging it in over night will do very little if your battery is already at or near full charge. Once the charging stops the current drain from the charger is basically zero. Maybe the new software does something that causes the battery to drain and thus causes some warming by discharging and then charging the battery again. The only thing I can think of that would do that is to start the climate control. Has anyone using the new software experienced charger current draw after the battery has been fully charged?

Also without warming the battery first, do we really want to be using it, or even charging a cold battery? I don't think the software fixes that concern. I guess driving in a cold battery will eventually warm it to a safe zone, but what damage has been done getting there?

 

[Grandad]

I think the software fix is basically Mitsubishi bypassing the lock out protection that the original firmware had. The original software was designed to protect the battery by not allowing the car to start when it was really cold. That of course caused all of the complaints so to "fix" it they changed things so the car would start in extreme cold. All off this nonsense about plugging it in over night will do very little if your battery is already at or near full charge. Once the charging stops the current drain from the charger is basically zero. Maybe the new software does something that causes the battery to drain and thus causes some warming by discharging and then charging the battery again. The only thing I can think of that would do that is to start the climate control. Has anyone using the new software experienced charger current draw after the battery has been fully charged?

Also without warming the battery first, do we really want to be using it, or even charging a cold battery? I don't think the software fixes that concern. I guess driving in a cold battery will eventually warm it to a safe zone, but what damage has been done getting there?

The "Reminder" to owners simply says that the update *may* slow the cooling - there's nothing to suggest that they've done anything except a little bit of CYA so they can blow smoke about having taken steps to address the problem.

 

[Grandad]

I find it funny Mitsubishi finds -25C "extreme cold". Where is this extreme cold? In Japan? In Greece? In Spain?

That's a temperature that can happen in any northern country and any high-mountain area in almost any country around the world.

I think an extremely cold temperature should be under -30C or -35C, which I have experienced only once or twice in my life. When I was a kid we regularly had temperatures between -20C and -25C in North-Western Bulgaria.

More than that, -25C is commonplace in locations where Mitsu dealears are located and sell these vehicles.