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jaapv - if you scroll up the page a few posts, you will find that the comment you are attributing to me was made by STS134 while he was referring to something I said on the previous page. There must be an error n the cut and paste / copy comment function. I thought I’d better let you know. :D
 
jaapv said:
This is complete nonsense. The engine and its electronics are designed to run at their most efficient speed. It is completely untrue that low revs are the most efficient. On an ICE/transmission car this can be different as you may be wasting power. In this case power not needed for moving the car will be stored in the battery, as the engine runs in the most efficient rev range.

Two comments here:
1. Storing energy in the battery instead of reducing RPM and keeping load constant needlessly puts the battery through additional cycles. These are very small batteries compared to the batteries in BEVs. Why do you think there are so many reports of high degradation? This makes things even worse.

2. What happens when you're on I-5 for 180 miles of flat, straight terrain and the battery is already full? You can't always store spare power in the battery even if you want to. There has to be space for it.

Tai626 said:
One of the graphics from Trex shows that around 100mph, there is almost no spare torque to run generator, assuming in a flat terrain, I think.
The 4cylinder ICE Outlander has the CVT. I am curious what is its mpg at 100mph. My guess is the same 20mpg just because of aerodynamic. The 6cy has the automatic 6 gears maybe hungrier?!

Tai

I'm guessing somewhere in the 15-20 mpg range based on experience. Probably depends a lot on whether you have a slight headwind or tailwind. I did a test where I set the cruise control at 95 mph and reset the drive meter. There was almost no wind and no other traffic around. I measured around 16-18 mpg and there was a slight uphill gradient to the road in that spot. So you're basically getting rid of the uphill gradient but at the same time, drag increases quadratically with speed. The drag coefficient of this vehicle is 0.33 which is pretty good for an SUV/crossover (comparison points: Subaru Forester 0.33; Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid 0.36; Ford Escape Hybrid 0.40). I'm sure those panels underneath the car that have me cussing every time I change the oil do help a lot with that. But with this much cross sectional area, you're definitely not going to get stellar mileage values once atmospheric drag becomes a huge factor.
 
I did a test about the drag at south bound I-15 at Cajon pass (6% grade):
First trip with 2007 RAV4 and going down hill trying to maintaining 90mph: neutral was needed (!) Second trip, same thing with Outlander: B0 is needed, no regen stores.
It illustrates how much power is needed to keep car moving at 90mph just because of drag!

In both case, no Brake was applied, just to stay on the topic :)

Tai

ps: The new 2019 RAV4 Hybrid claims to have 38mpg. I am waiting to see the actual mpg when it drives at 100mph on the flat I-5. My guess = 20mpg :)
 
According to my (large -he has several hundreds of these cars on the road-) dealer, there is only a minimal number of cars with degraded batteries, the Internet hype argument is not valid. To quote somebody I normally do not agree with, you are using fake news. In the Netherlands, probably the largest market for these cars since 2013, the number of batteries replaced under guaranty can be counted on the fingers of your hands.

If the car has a full battery it will switch to parallel hybrid sooner, bringing the revs down in line with the car's speed. Please familiarize yourself with the way the car functions before jumping to (the wrong) conclusions.
 
Tai626 said:
I did a test about the drag at south bound I-15 at Cajon pass (6% grade):
First trip with 2007 RAV4 and going down hill trying to maintaining 90mph: neutral was needed (!) Second trip, same thing with Outlander: B0 is needed, no regen stores.
It illustrates how much power is needed to keep car moving at 90mph just because of drag!

In both case, no Brake was applied, just to stay on the topic :)

Tai

That's pretty much been my experience on the Grapevine grade (6% for 5 miles). Doing some math here, the Outlander PHEV weighs 4178 lb or 1895 kg. A % grade is calculated by "rise over run" and thus changes in height by 6 units for every 100 units of horizontal distance. The speed coming down the slope is 90 mph or 40.2336 m/s. In 5 miles @ 90 mph, we travel 5 miles down the slope along the hypotenuse of the right triangle. The distance of the hypotenuse, if the run is 100 units of distance and the rise is 6 units of distance, can be calculated with the pythagorean theorem, and is sqrt(100^2 + 6^2) = 100.179838290945549 units. Thus for every 100.179838290945549 units of distance forward, we descend by 6 units of distance.

Okay, so we established that we're heading down the slope at 40.2336 m/s. This means that we are descending at 40.2336 m/s forward speed * (6 meters vertical height/100.179838290945549 m/s forward speed) = 2.409682468231917 m/s. Earth's gravitational field is of course about 9.8 m/s^2 and therefore, this means that the amount of energy being converted from potential energy (from elevation change) into kinetic energy each second is 1895 kg * 2.409682468231917 m * 9.8 m/s^2 = 44750.213 kg*m^2/s^2 = 44750.213 J. Since this amount of energy is being converted every second, and 1W = 1 J/s, we can express this as 44.750213 kW, or around 60 mechanical horsepower. So it takes around 60 WHP to overcome air resistance alone at 90 mph.

Of course, what the hill gives you on the way down, it takes away on the way up. To go UP the same hill @ 90 mph, you have to overcome air resistance, which as we just showed is around 60 HP, and you must also make up for the amount of kinetic energy that is being converted into potential energy at the same rate of 60 HP. So you need around 120 HP, which is around 90 kW (actually you need more, as I didn't account for the weight of the passengers and stuff in the trunk, etc). So you can see why I will typically lose about half of the battery from Grapevine to Tejon Pass as you're basically revving the engine up to WOT and then drawing around 30 kW from the battery continuously all the way up. The usable capacity of the battery is around 8-9 kW so drawing 30 kW continuously will drain the whole gauge in around 18 minutes. I haven't yet dared to try starting this climb with an empty battery. Maybe I will do that next time.

Tai626 said:
ps: The new 2019 RAV4 Hybrid claims to have 38mpg. I am waiting to see the actual mpg when it drives at 100mph on the flat I-5. My guess = 20mpg :)
Yeah I think that's about right. I've never been a fan of the Hybrid Synergy Drive because efficiency drops like a rock above about 75 mph. In order to avoid overrevving the ICE, MG1 must drive the sun gear at over 10000 RPM, which requires shunting large amounts of electricity from MG2 to MG1 (and incurs all of the transmission losses in the wiring), and in addition, you have all of the power losses in the physical gears themselves. A friend who used to work in the automotive industry told me that they start pushing 25% gearbox losses at those speeds, which is absolutely insane. A good traditional tranny only loses around 15%.
 
Please forgive the curiosity of an Englishman, but what exactly is the speed limit on your I5?

From the information available from Google over this side of the pond, it appears to be 65mph, at which speed you will get 36-40mpg (UK), which supports my long run figure of 32-34mpg at a SatNav regulated 72mph (when/where safe to do so).

I don’t profess to know the formulae by heart, but drag increases exponentially with speed, and our cars are about as aerodynamic as an 1800Kg house brick, so is it any wonder your fuel consumption is so bad?

With 112,000 miles showing after 43 months, my average is more than 2600miles a month, so I know a lot about 400 mile days, and don’t (make that can’t) hang about, but I learnt a long time ago, leave a few minutes earlier, drive within the legal leeway of the law and you will still arrive on time, use less fuel and be much calmer because driving at those speeds takes a lot more mental effort than driving 20 - 25mph slower.

As my teenage son says - chill! :)
 
Steel188 said:
Please forgive the curiosity of an Englishman, but what exactly is the speed limit on your I5?

From the information available from Google over this side of the pond, it appears to be 65mph, at which speed you will get 36-40mpg (UK), which supports my long run figure of 32-34mpg at a SatNav regulated 72mph (when/where safe to do so).

Officially, it's 70 mph. In a practical sense, actually doing 70 will get you the stink eye from virtually every driver out there, as most people do at least 75-80. If you're cruising along in gaps in traffic, a lot of people will do 90+. It's basically a ~200 mile stretch from the just east of SF Bay Area to Grapevine, through the San Joaquin Valley, that's flat, straight, has no towns whatsoever, and everyone just wants to get to their destinations ASAP. It passes through only farmland and every 10-30 miles or so, there's an exit with fast food and gas stations. Then it's back to just passing through farmland. It think there's probably fewer than 20, perhaps maybe fewer than 15, turns in the road in that ~200 miles, and most of them are very gentle turns of no more than 10-15 degrees over a distance of 1000 feet or more as the road realigns. And you can even do the "turns", if you want to call them that, at 90+ mph easily. And really, after doing more than 50 miles of conditions like this and knowing you have 150 more to go, you will want to.

And since Tai626 has driven the Cajon Pass on I-15, I'm sure he knows about this spot which is just as bad as I-5. The horizon literally does not change for 10+ miles and it makes you just want a car with a higher top speed so you can get it over with.

Steel188 said:
I don’t profess to know the formulae by heart, but drag increases exponentially with speed, and our cars are about as aerodynamic as an 1800Kg house brick, so is it any wonder your fuel consumption is so bad?

A good way to think about this is you learned about kinetic energy in physics, right? KE (non relativistic) = 1/2*m*v^2. When you are pushing through the atmosphere, each air molecule hits you with that amount of kinetic energy and slows you down. Since the force at which the air molecules are hitting you is proportional to v^2, drag is quadratic with respect to speed. Power (amount of work you need to do to travel a certain distance) however is force dotted into the displacement, in other words, F*Δx. F is proportional to v^2, and Δx is proportional to v, so power is proportional to v^2*v or v^3. Thus, to go twice the speed requires eight times the power. In more layman's terms, you can think of it like this: when you double the speed, each air molecule hits you four times as hard (since their kinetic energy is proportional to v^2) AND you're pushing through twice as many of them per unit time as well, since you're covering twice the distance. 4 times the kinetic energy * 2 times the number of air molecules hitting you = 8 times the power

As far as why fuel consumption is so bad, well, it's just physics. A lot of it, at least. But, you don't have to make it worse than physics requires it to be. All engines have a consumption map that shows how much fuel is consumed to produce each unit of power output. This is called brake specific fuel consumption. On the X-axis is engine RPM and on the Y-axis is engine load. You can see that there's a "sweet spot" where the engine has the best BSFC and it is typically at a high load and fairly low to medium RPM.

Here's a typical consumption map:

View attachment BSFC.png

Red indicates lower fuel consumption; orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet and black are increasingly bad fuel consumption (more fuel consumed to make the same amount of power). Now notice several things about this engine:

1. If you want the engine to make 124 HP of power, you have only one choice: it MUST operate at between 5500-6000 RPM and at a fairly high load.

2. If you want the engine to make say 40 HP, there are a lot of ways to get it (the blue curved lines are the lines of constant power output, and we can be anywhere along the 40 HP line). You can operate it at a low RPM and high load, or at a high RPM and low load. Putting it at 2200 RPM at a fairly high load makes it extremely efficient. But you can also operate it at 5000 RPM and under a fairly low load and it will eat a ton of fuel (this is the region we wish to avoid). This is because a lightly loaded engine at a high RPM not only has to overcome more internal friction, but must pull a vacuum against a mostly closed throttle.

So now you can probably see why I'm annoyed with the fixed ratio clutch. The clutch is designed to allow the engine to make peak power at around 90 mph, and at this speed, it turns at around 3750 RPM. But if you aren't climbing hills, and you are cruising along at between 78-106 mph, you don't need all that power. Normal transmissions would shift to a higher gear to lower the RPM and put the engine back into the red or orange region, but the PHEV cannot do this, so it's forced to operate the engine in the yellow or green region (by design, it cannot use series mode, and lower the engine RPM, if it is traveling at or above 78 mph). It *tries* to be slightly more efficient and since it cannot reduce RPM while keeping power constant, it increases load while keeping RPM constant; in other words, it tries to move up on the *power* curves at the same RPM. It runs the generator and dumps excess power into the battery (this puts the battery through useless cycling too, but let's ignore that for now). But once the battery fills up, it has nowhere else to put the power, and it just runs inefficiently.
 
STS134 said:
So now you can probably see why I'm annoyed with the fixed ratio clutch. The clutch is designed to allow the engine to make peak power at around 90 mph, and at this speed, it turns at around 3750 RPM. But if you aren't climbing hills, and you are cruising along at between 78-106 mph, you don't need all that power. Normal transmissions would shift to a higher gear to lower the RPM and put the engine back into the red or orange region, but the PHEV cannot do this, so it's forced to operate the engine in the yellow or green region (by design, it cannot use series mode, and lower the engine RPM, if it is traveling at or above 78 mph). It *tries* to be slightly more efficient and since it cannot reduce RPM while keeping power constant, it increases load while keeping RPM constant; in other words, it tries to move up on the *power* curves at the same RPM. It runs the generator and dumps excess power into the battery (this puts the battery through useless cycling too, but let's ignore that for now). But once the battery fills up, it has nowhere else to put the power, and it just runs inefficiently.

I guess one has to factor in high speed cruising efficiency when deciding on an Outlander (when I think about it, is there any other PHEV with fixed ratio transmission besides the Outlander and Honda Clarity? Out of curiosity, does anyone know the Clarity's ICE rpm at 90 mph?) The Prius Prime/Subaru Crosstrek PHEV (and upcoming RAV4 PHEV) have CVTs. The Kia/Hyundai PHEVs use 6-speed dual clutch. Maybe Mitsubishi thought not too many people would be doing high speed cruising in the Outlander and also to save costs?
 
Woodman411 said:
I guess one has to factor in high speed cruising efficiency when deciding on an Outlander (when I think about it, is there any other PHEV with fixed ratio transmission besides the Outlander and Honda Clarity? Out of curiosity, does anyone know the Clarity's ICE rpm at 90 mph?) The Prius Prime/Subaru Crosstrek PHEV (and upcoming RAV4 PHEV) have CVTs. The Kia/Hyundai PHEVs use 6-speed dual clutch. Maybe Mitsubishi thought not too many people would be doing high speed cruising in the Outlander and also to save costs?

I'm unaware of any uses other than in the Outlander PHEV and Clarity, but supposedly the design was either cheap or royalty free, so it might be in other vehicles too. The thing is, if you have an Outlander and several other vehicles (let's assume that they're sedans), the Outlander is probably going to be your road trip car, because it has a fairly large cargo capacity. And that means you're going to be high speed cruising in it, especially if you live in California and you're doing your road trips on very boring, flat, and straight rural roads.

I wouldn't count on the eCVTs in the Prius Prime/Subaru Crosstrek to be better though (remember, these aren't true CVTs; they actually aren't CVTs at all in the traditional sense. The eCVT thing is a marketing term). While the Outlander PHEV is forced to run its engine at a non optimal RPM for the power output required, the Prius Prime and Crosstrek can put the engine more toward its optimal power band, but then are forced to use MG2 as a generator and send lots of power to MG1 (wiring losses) and spin MG1 at over 10000 RPM to keep the engine RPM low, which additionally means lots of losses in the gears themselves. So although the engine itself might be running very efficiently, the gearbox is killing you by converting 25% or more of the power from the engine into heat through the losses in the motors, wiring, and gears themselves.
 
The other thing is that the scenario of high speed driving and a full battery does not exist on the PHEV. The battery will always drop at least to half-way depending on the speed. The car will always be able to store excess energy (if any).I have done tens of thousands of kms on the German Autobahn at speeds around 140/150 kph, with long stretches of 100 - 130 in between. In general I will run with the Charge button activated, to keep as much spare battery power as possible. The consumption will be between 10 and 12 km/l. Which is not bad for a two-ton petrol car with the Cw value of Mount Fuji.
Somebody should direct this poster to Anko's thread which contains an efficiency chart quite unlike the one he posted, among many more. Considerably more informative than a "typical" graph of an engine designed for different use. :roll:
 
One more “typical” graphic...

Toyota have been using Atkinson cycle since early Prius and Mitsubishi just introduce it in 2.4L In MY2019 (Japan/Europe only)

The BSFC of Atkinson is much prettier than Otto cycle at lower load and higher rpm.

Tai
 

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Tai626 said:
One more “typical” graphic...

Toyota have been using Atkinson cycle since early Prius and Mitsubishi just introduce it in 2.4L In MY2019 (Japan/Europe only)

The BSFC of Atkinson is much prettier than Otto cycle at lower load and higher rpm.

Tai

On that note, any insights Tai on when MY2020 will be coming to America?
 
jaapv said:
The other thing is that the scenario of high speed driving and a full battery does not exist on the PHEV. The battery will always drop at least to half-way depending on the speed. The car will always be able to store excess energy (if any).I have done tens of thousands of kms on the German Autobahn at speeds around 140/150 kph, with long stretches of 100 - 130 in between. In general I will run with the Charge button activated, to keep as much spare battery power as possible. The consumption will be between 10 and 12 km/l. Which is not bad for a two-ton petrol car with the Cw value of Mount Fuji.
Somebody should direct this poster to Anko's thread which contains an efficiency chart quite unlike the one he posted, among many more. Considerably more informative than a "typical" graph of an engine designed for different use. :roll:

Well I've done I-5 with the Charge button on. Charge mode usually cuts off at at 14/16 bars on the graph, but I've seen it go up to 15/16 bars. I wondered what in the heck was going on so I plugged in my OBDII reader and switched on PHEV Watchdog and the SoC was indeed at around 95%. Now on this particular trip (holiday weekend) there happened to be just enough times where I had to slow down to pass large trucks that I dropped briefly below 78 mph and it would consume the charge it had put into the battery, but if I had been able to do the entire drive on cruise control without slowing down (which has definitely happened before) then at some point, it would have had nowhere to put the extra energy. I really wonder what would happen if I tried to emergency brake from 106 mph with a 100% full battery (i.e. what would the temperature of the rotors be when I fully stopped?). Then again, the gas-only Outlander with no regen has the same size rotors, so maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

Tai626 said:
One more “typical” graphic...

Toyota have been using Atkinson cycle since early Prius and Mitsubishi just introduce it in 2.4L In MY2019 (Japan/Europe only)

The BSFC of Atkinson is much prettier than Otto cycle at lower load and higher rpm.

Tai

That's a neat graphic, thanks! Yeah the BSFC of the 4B11 looks a lot better than that Subie engine I posted earlier. Do you have the same graphic with the power curves on it?

As a side note, I wonder why Japanese companies are so hesitant to use a Miller cycle engine and drop some weight from the vehicle. If it has to do with cost or reliability or just experience? The US (well, at least California and some other states) want to raise CAFE requirements to nearly 50 mpg by 2025. I really hope we don't experience the same type of fiasco we had when the ITU decreed that anything that got more than a certain number of bits per second would be called "3G", another number was required for "3.5G", etc. The spirit of the declaration was that companies would use spectrum more efficiently to get to those target numbers. The practical result was anything but that. There was (and still is) a Japanese company called NTT DoCoMo, who saw the requirements and decided to make a standard called WCDMA ("W" for wideband, since the channels were 5 MHz wide as opposed to 200 kHz-1.25 MHz which was the case for every other mobile phone standard at the time). They hit their target numbers alright, but efficiency? Meh. And it caused MAJOR problems for carriers around the world who had to find 5 MHz of contiguous spectrum just to deploy the system. I think you can see where I'm going with this argument. ANYONE can make cars that get 50 mpg, just by sacrificing something else (narrower tires, 0-60 in 15+ seconds, etc). But since the spirit of the regulation is that companies should achieve these gains by technological advancements, there ought to be minimum performance requirements in there too, just like how the ITU learned from the 3G fiasco and imposed spectral efficiency requirements on 4G LTE.
 
The graphic I posted is NOT 4B11. Sorry to disappoint you. It is just another “typical” graphic to show the difference between Otto and Atkinson. Maybe it is mitigation for this one scenario (higher rpm and lower load) to get better fuel efficiency without depending that much on batteries alone (which by physics, account for ~15% in round trip loss, I think: engine ->generator -> battery -> motor).

The MMNA is moving from California to Tennessee to join Nissan, I think. No more inside information about the MY2020/2021. My guess: more Otto for another (2) years until the total makeover.

Tai
 
Tai626 said:
The MMNA is moving from California to Tennessee to join Nissan, I think. No more inside information about the MY2020/2021. My guess: more Otto for another (2) years until the total makeover.

Tai

I was afraid you'd say that. I'm seeing some killer deals on MY2019, deciding whether to pull the trigger or wait for MY2020... (Or just wait for the ID4)

Update: just talked with a Mitsubishi dealer who got a fresh batch of 2020s in stock... 2.0L. Noooooooooooo!
 
Steel188 said:
Please forgive the curiosity of an Englishman, but what exactly is the speed limit on your I5?

From the information available from Google over this side of the pond, it appears to be 65mph, at which speed you will get 36-40mpg (UK), which supports my long run figure of 32-34mpg at a SatNav regulated 72mph (when/where safe to do so).

Good point - so another grumble that Mitsu didn't build a car to break the law efficiently :lol: Remember the Japanese are VERY law abiding.
 
ThudnBlundr said:
greendwarf said:
Good point - so another grumble that Mitsu didn't build a car to break the law efficiently :lol: Remember the Japanese are VERY law abiding.
Really?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17324146

Exactly my point! His behaviour was unacceptable to fellow Japanese - I can't imagine similar complaints being made in UK (or US) :lol:
 
greendwarf said:
Good point - so another grumble that Mitsu didn't build a car to break the law efficiently :lol: Remember the Japanese are VERY law abiding.

Building a product for only one type of customer in one region of the world is a mistake. Just ask BlackVue, whose DR900S-2CH dashcams originate from South Korea, and a lot of vehicles there are probably parked in garages. There are a ton of complaints coming out of southern US states like Florida, Texas, etc., that if the vehicle is parked outside in the Sun (as many vehicles are in these areas, when people are at work), and the camera is in parking mode, it overheats and shuts down.

I mean, the whole high speed scenario thing is probably because in Japan, and in a lot of Asia, there aren't a lot of places where you can drive that fast. But this isn't the case if you're selling the vehicle worldwide. The AC must also be effective enough to lower the cabin temperature to a comfortable level even in places like Dubai and Death Valley, etc.
 
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